My 1942 GPW S/N 76242

[jeffwho]

I've been trying to figure out if I could move the whole "Lucille blows her top" thread to this new one ... to put all my posts about this thing in one place.  I've gotten no traction on figuring that out thus far.

To make an excruciating story short, today I got the head back on the block after prepping the gasket, cleaning nuts and bolts and making sure I could find all the bolt-ons.  The process of getting to this point was long, involving lots of missteps.  You may have read the thread on one major oversight (calling all experts) but I've cleaned the head and radiator thoroughly and decided I was as ready as ever to get this done.   There is some more work to do on the radiator, but after disturbing Moosey on his anniversary (doh!) that will wait because I don't want to perform a half-ass repair (as usual) that will just need to be addressed again.   There is lots that need to be addressed, but I got concerned about flash-rust seeing how long the head would sit after being cleaned if I was to paint everything all pretty.  The real thing is, I was sick of screwing everything up, so the sooner I got it back together, the less chance I could pooch it more.

So now, after cleaning up and getting caught up on laundry I decided to go get comfy by fiddling with the torque wrench before finishing them off at the recommended setting.

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Having said that now, much pooching has occurred. Got the head all bolted in, practised with the torque wrench, new plugs, cleaned contacts and Moosey was nice enough to come over with his torch and rebraise the spots on the lower hose outlet of the rad since it was leaking coolant.  Odd it didn't leak any water at HIS HOUSE - welcome to my world. Anyway after some chow we hit the bricks - he let me hold the light! The Boss yelled a poignant reminder as we went out the garage door "Remember, Bo, he's not allowed to use any tools". After several iterations and filling the rad up with water, Moosey nailed the leak and I got the radiator installed back in the jeep. After that point, I figured I'd used up all my luck for the day, and off went the lights.

Morning. Coolant-in. Oil-in. Zinc additive-in.  Time to face the muzak.  Backward down the driveway so I didn't "stink up the house with that stinky jeep".  Fast forward several hours trying to start, then crank start, and push start and finally SWEAR start the jeep, to no avail.   Cleaning contacts in the distributor, check points and rotor, etc., F-script you boyo, no driving for you.  I ended up pushing it BACK UP THE DRIVEWAY ...inclined of course... because it never started. 

Time to step through the electrical troubleshooting steps.   Only good news is that neither the head nor the radiator appear to be leaking - silly how I had no electrical system issues beforehand.?    Gotta love it. 

[athawk11]

Jan 23, 2016 7:04:25 GMT -5 jeffwho said:

/TBC

Am I missing something?

[Deleted]

I think it's geek speak, but he might be the only one fluent in it around here. He does this to me all the time.

[Haines Garage]

Jan 23, 2016 9:23:19 GMT -5 athawk11 said:

Jan 23, 2016 7:04:25 GMT -5 jeffwho said:

/TBC

Am I missing something?

You have no idea......

[jeffwho]

I haven't posted any updates since I had to push the jeep back up into the garage. Long story short, if you can believe that, Saturday AM Moosey came over to guide me through all the extensive electrical system tests because NOW -after frying the starter foot switch, which I thought wasn't that big a deal-- I get no action from the starter. Battery's been tested, 647CCA and 6.37 volts, so all OK in theory. All sparks checked, timing roughed out using TDC on #1 and timing marks on flywheel, and the whole circuitry of the jeep bypassed just to try and start it .... all to no result.   Had the battery checked AGAIN.   As much as I wanted it to be bad, it's not.

I was left with the job to pull the starter and bench test it. Damn thing seems to work, at least to me. Here is my question, or line of questioning: with the battery hooked up, the starter spins, BUT it doesn't jolt, in other words I can hook up the battery lead without holding it to keep in place. Seems to me the last time I did that, it jumped a little and I had to keep a hold on it- also, some DIY "bench check" articles on G503 indicate same. (see here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etb4qTsxhIg) I did find one YooToob video that looks exactly like mine, but he'd removed the bushing and Bendix- just testing the motor I assume. ANYWAY in contrast to the other video in this thread, there was no "jump" when connected, and it sure didn't spin that fast.   Maybe it's a 12v in the video?   Additionally, and this came up at breakfast this morning, the starter spins but at no time did the Bendix spin up toward the top, like in the video I reference... it sure doesn't "slam home" as I saw it put one one article.

One other thing that's NOT been done as yet is replacing the bell housing bushing - hoping to get a little better idea of what constitutes that necessity AND, since you know if it's going to happen it will happen to ME, to avoid dropping the damned thing into the housing.   I've seen it recommended to replace, but is that due to it being a ground, or an aligning process?   It doesn't LOOK warped or reamed out, etc.   I'm just curious and trying to learn.

I also found this gem, a thread on which many of you participated back in 2014:  www.thecj2apage.com/forums/slow-cranking-engine-that-doesnt-like-to-fire_topic31760.html.

I need to check on solving this issue before deciding the starter is bad and in need of professional care 'cos my play money fund is dried up.  

[Deleted]

Unfettered that starter should jump off the bench when you hit it with 6.4 volts. The drive gear should jump to the end of shaft like it's on a urgent mission to engage the flywheel.

[jeffwho]

NOT at all what happens. Here's hoping I can disassemble and clean it up inside like I did the commutator in the generator. Thanks Rick

[Deleted]

Muley's right. She should buck pretty hard when you put the juice to 'er!

I'd pull 'er apart and give the communtator and brushes a good look. Most of the time, the brushes are worn in a wedge shape, but they still can be used, unless they are plumb worn to the nub. Sometimes, the communtator can be dressed with some 220 grit sandpaper, (NOT EMERY CLOTH) but if its really gouged, it needs to be trued up in an armature lathe and the mica undercut. Provided there's still some copper left on the communtator bars.



I'm sure most rebuild shops would do it for a nominal fee. I would be happy do it for you, but shipping would probably be higher than Willie Nelson's kite.....

But there is a Fastenall store local...

Another thing to look for when you get it apart, are telltale marks from the armature rubbing the field pole shoes from worn bushings. That can really drag a starter's balls down in the dirt.

There was a thread we helped BoBo with a similar issue, I'll try to find it. (See post below)

To answer your other question, bell housing bushing is for alignment and bendix support reasons, it can cause issues, especially when coupled with worn starter bushings.

Oh, one more thing....
Very important.... The starter grounds through the mounting face. It has to be clean, bright and tight. In my mind, the number one cause of trouble in 6v systems is too small wiring and bad grounds..

Hope this helps!

[Deleted]

BoBo's starter thread

[Deleted]

I don't always drink Shiner Bock, but when I do I chuck an armature up in the lathe. Stay thirsty Professor!

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[jeffwho]

I tried using the HG Forum search but left all my queries too vague /straight face/. Both Moosey and Ol Haines have posted and most of you pitched in to work through a couple starter threads. Thanks Prof for chiming in with pics and the link to Bo's thread - from that I found Schiller's more recent thread and I will read over and check into the starter. I'm not all that thrilled about taking it apart, but I'm not completely stupid and useless. It just seems it. I appreciate the replies.

(BTW, Prof, why not emery cloth? I just ask because I used emery cloth on the generator because I was advised specifically to NOT use sandpaper .. AND I got that working by cleaning up the commutator. Just another example of me finding sources, doing a little work and thinking I'm on the right track, only to find out I didn't do it right!)

[Deleted]

It seems Emory cloth leaves more grit embeded in the copper.

[Deleted]

I personally would take it to a shop that could chuck it up in a lathe and mill it down. Here’s something I found. emery (corundite) vs garnet, aluminum oxide and…

[jeffwho]

I got curious and started in on the dismantling of the device. I was able to separate the two halves and isolate the armature for inspection. The copper was slathered in a greasy film, which I am pretty sure was whatever was gummed up into the brush plate assembly bushing, in theory to lubricate the rod. The top fibre washer was cracked in half, now in two pieces as I tried to extricate it, and the metal washer has a couple dings and grooves worn into its face and edges. I surmised that it might have been wobbling somehow. I cleaned it up the best I could with sandpaper, carefully, and looked at the brushes, and cleaned those up too. I found a snap or rivet punch in my grandad's toolbox which is the exact (using a analog caliper, anyway) diameter of the armature rod, and it sits in the bell housing bushing nice and tight. It was a bit wobbly in the brush plate assembly bushing, though, so need to correct that. That should be fun getting that out.

So one thing I was unable to fully do is inspect the Bendix springs because I couldn't see how to remove it from the housing. I found a reference to a "anti-turning pin" but there is no such beast on this exploded view: www.armyradio.com/publish/MB-GPW_Jeep_Parts/Pictures/pic-26.jpg

I'm still trying to get it disassembled to inspect it all before calling it quits. It's not that I don't want to take it to a shop to be done, I am trying to learn more about how these work. Bonus is not spending that money. I'll never reach the heights of the true pros on the HG, but I would like to at least carry on (and keep up with...) a conversation about the motor instead of using terms like "the shiny spinny-thing-a-ma-bob".

By the way, I think it only fair to mention that I did put it back together, just to test it. The motor spun faster, and the Bendix engaged, but it was still nothing like the jolt I was expecting, and it still wouldn't have jittered off a bench under current. I couldn't guess whether it would actually start the jeep - my guess would be not and I don't want to put it all back together before I am reasonably sure it's going to crank!

[Deleted]

Jeffy, here's a pic of a properly undercut commutator. Note the depth as indicated by the razor blade. Click on the pic for larger image.

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[jeffwho]

Hasaan chop! So is that what's meant by 'undercutting the mica'? Wow, ok then mine's not even close to that condition. I guess the greasy goo gushed into the gaps, and I totally overlooked it! I'll have to look into that for sure. One other topic i forgot to touch on was about the brushes - I'd guess it's in the 1825B manual, but since I didn't bring it to work I can't look into the specifics. Those pics I sent to Bo might still be lurking about in my phone. Surely there is a point (size dimension?) to which they're too worn to work properly. I mean, they're not nubs, and look evenly worn but again my eyes aren't trained instruments.

Thanks for the pic Rick!

[jeffwho]

Disassembled again, further this time as I finally picked up on the key inside the intermediate bearing. Little more knowledge about what to inspect goes a long way - all the commutator segments are evenly worn with the mica, and found in the manual brushes are meant to be at least 5/16" in length. Also discovered that the pole shoes, field coils and the entire inside of the frame are painted red. With care, being certain to NOT cleave off the tape on the coils, I sanded off the paint on the shoes as much as I could. I also threw caution to the wind and carefully, using a small scribe, etched an unimposing gap in the mica right the way round the commutator - likely not to the depth indicated in Rick's post, but enough to separate each segment clearly. On advice from Bo I checked the "wobble" on the bushing inside the intermediate bearing, and it seems to wobble but not sure what the tolerance is supposed to be. I'm not quite at the point to reassemble and test, but I feel better about cleaning it all up. Will post more, and hopefully some pics

[Deleted]

Those early starters that fit in the bushing at the rear of the bell housing will drag if out of the Jeep. That's why the bushing is in the bell. If the bushing is egg shaped and worn, the starter won't work very well. If the brushes are worn down and short, the spring will not hold them against the commutator tight enough. Weak contact then. I'd put in new brushes if you think they are worn. A simple bench test for a starter is to take a battery and ground the shaft of the armature with jumper cables. Take the hot cable and touch around on the commutator. If it's shorted it will spark. If good it will not. Then take a voltmeter and set it to continuity . See if the field coils show a short to the case. That still doesn't show a small leak, but definately a bad short. The fiber washer is to control too much end float. It keeps the brushes where they belong on the cummutator. That professor has the coolest tool for turning commutators I've ever seen. Very nice Gary!!!!!! Another tip: do not turn the post when installing the outer cable. You will ruin the inner wiring to the fields. To start your Jeep up, you should check the static timing of your distributor and points. If it looks spot on, then a can of carb cleaner sprayed a bit into the cross over tube will check to see if it's getting fuel. You already checked for spark at the plugs right? Oilly

[jeffwho]

Oilly, the static timing (assuming that is setting TDC of #1 to the flywheel marking) was done when Moosey was over.

I checked that the armature rod fits snug in the bell housing bushing. All brushes measured above specified minimum 5/16". I tell you I am an expert at removing and reinstalling those damned brushes. I didn't try the spark test on the rod, but I did with the meter check that the coils don't indicate short, and that the starter lug rings with the shoes on the positive sides ( think I have that right). Oh, there was one other test to measure from the armature to individual commutator pads, but I think it was amperage and my meter didn't do that. , so all I had left to do was test. Under current, it jumped a little and engaged the bendix properly. I decided to then reinstall the starter, and not only did it turn, it turned strong. Now, since I am not allowed to start the jeep in the garage, I stopped there. By the way, I'm not sure I ever mentioned the carb issue Bo discovered - BUT that's for another time.

Today, or tomorrow, I will see if I can't get her to turn over. I have always had to use ether/starter fluid, but perhaps ..just maybe.. a semi-capable cleaning might have been all she needed. If I get her started, I then have to turn attention back to the original problem and check the head for any leaks and re-torque.

OK, so here's the funny part of the story. Face it, you knew this was coming. My wife left for a school event, and I was working in the garage. Reinstalling the start foot pedal, starter and getting things reconnected. So, after testing the new foot button a couple times, hearing the starter fire up, etc., I was feeling pretty durn good. "Hey maybe I'm not a total putz!" I pondered. "Goodness, I might have just fixed this thing!" AND just as I reached in to make sure all the bolts were tight on the starter mounts, etc., my wife hits the GARAGE DOOR OPENER. Good Lord Almighty, I just about shat. And I'm not even sure if I could repeat what I said ... and certainly not out loud. In the blink of an eye I went from "SuperMechanic" in my mind to thinking I'd shorted something and was about to go up in flames. Like a quivering moron, pulse rate about 3000bpm, I tried to explain just how unfunny that was... Damn did she laugh at me, and well - that's just par for the course in my world. If I'm honest, it was great to see her laugh a real laugh - even at my expense. Timing is everything, and I guess after all these years, we've still got it.

[Deleted]

The bastage WILL spin like the Tasmanian Devil and start that jeep in 3 revs! Make us proud Jeffy!

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[Deleted]

Sounds good on the starter. Static timing on your Jeep is accomplished by parking your timing mark at 5 degrees BTDC. Then you gap your points to .020. Then loosen the clamp and retard it by turning the dizzy. Then bring it back until you just see the points begin to open and lock it down. Should be very very close to spot on. If she doen't go with the choke on full, open the choke and spray a shot of carb clean in. It will fire if all is set. Like you say, retorque after you bring it up to operating temp. Then check it again in a week. You will win! Oilly

[Deleted]

I think he's got ithe timing good enough to start. Once going, he can fine tune it.

My attention is now concerned with his carb and something I stumbled upon last weekend. Let me preface this with I'M NO EXPERT, HOWEVER I KNOW OF ONE THAT HANGS OUT HERE.

The jeep has sat for an extended period of time. We used the primer handle on the pump to recirculate the fuel back to the carb. I could feel the pump working through the resistance in the lever. I can't recall if I heard the fuel squirting into the carb's bowl or if the handle's pressure just subsided. (It's been a long week and the little details no longer hang out in my mind). Anyways, as I was monkeying around on that side of the engine, I tugged on the throttle and was looking down the neck of the carb. I did not see any fuel squirt out of the tube. As I was shining a light down there, I kept working the throttle, but never saw the squirt of fuel. Jeff could smell it, but we never saw it.

Could the float needle be stuck? If so, would that still release the pressure I felt on the pump's hand primer? Or could the plunger be dried up and not sealing as it works up and down? Or that unknown option three that Scout is about to tell us?

[Deleted]

The needle and seat, in combination with the float, only regulate fuel flow into the bowl. At first blush, I would suspect a worn or improperly set accelerator pump. But do not overlook the possibility of a stuck check valve. Old gas, dirt and grit in the system require proper filtration to prevent such a problem.

[jeffwho]

Still no luck, starter is back to being a slug. I'm retreating for now - I have the charger on, just to rule out the battery. It's been tested, both times Advance folks say it's good. My Harbor Fright charger indicator says it's 25% charged, so just waiting to see if that changes. As you have already discovered, my luck is wicked funny. My last can of starter fluid ALSO leaked, and emptied itself on the floor. It smells like the jeep and every car on the block could start off the fumes! I'll look into the carb suggestions Scout wrote. The fuel line goes through an external in-line filter on the underside of the jeep, and via hose bypasses the genuine bowl strainer. I've got a tractor fuel filter in there to increase filtration instead of the screen type - I will get the fuel line rerouted one day. Baby steps - can't get her started at all, and don't want to fiddle with a rerouting fuel lines with a full tank either! I'm doing a lot of sitting and scratching - no jeepin!

[Deleted]

"The jeep has sat for an extended period of time. We used the primer handle on the pump to recirculate the fuel back to the carb. I could feel the pump working through the resistance in the lever. I can't recall if I heard the fuel squirting into the carb's bowl or if the handle's pressure just subsided."

Read more: hainesgarage.proboards.com/thread/1688/1942-gpw-76242#ixzz41QPMEBTc

When you operate the fuel pump priming lever, you are doing the same thing that the camshaft does - move the lever that moves the diaphragm. However, you (or the camshaft) are not pumping fuel to the carburetor at that time. You are pushing the diaphragm back against the spring in the pump, and "pulling" fuel into the pump body. When you (or the camshaft) release the lever, the spring pushes the diaphragm back again, pushing fuel from the pump to the carburetor. This is what controls fuel pressure, it can only pump as much pressure as what the spring is designed for. When it felt to you that the handle's pressure subsided, fuel pressure in the line to the carb had reached a point where the spring could not push back, the diaphragm was held in the "pushed-back" position by the pressure, and your hand-priming lever was not even contacting the pump lever.

Also --- "recirculate the fuel back to the carb"? The fuel did not come from the carb, it can not be sent back.

BW