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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 11:22:24 GMT -5
Well, you would have seen a bad rod bearing. No marks anywhere, no broken springs, nothing in the timing chest, no end float issues, not the float, if it isn't a tappet noise, then all that's left is a bad piston somehow. I would have thought taking a plug wire off would have quieted it if it was a piston. This one is sure not responding to any test. What a pain. John
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 3, 2014 11:37:36 GMT -5
I've been using a long steel rod as a listening device. While running, the fuel pump didn't appear to be the noise maker. I'm thinking of picking up an engine stethoscope.
I'll bet that if one of you guys were here, you would know exactly what the noise is, and where it's coming from. I'm just beginning to feel incompetent. I hate to just start throwing a ton of money at it, but I'm inclined to get new valve springs, lifters, bearings, and what ever else can make a noise. Problem with that is I then may as well rebuild the engine. I don't have the time, nor do I think it needs a full on rebuild.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 12:14:47 GMT -5
[quote author="@brucew" source="/post/10262/thread" timestamp="1409612417How about something on top of a piston? [/quote]
It sounds more like this all the time. Could be a piece of carbon. Might be a piece of the land above that false ring groove (carbon dam). I've seen a few Go-Devils with pieces missing from pistons. I wish I was there, I feel helpless trying to help from here. Bruce
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 3, 2014 14:54:51 GMT -5
I appreciate it Bruce. This has got to be excruciating for you guys too. I know what you're all thinking...
"Look at the monkey! He's so stupid. Why does he throw his poop at people?"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 15:39:56 GMT -5
You Will??s motor heads should have an answer for this fellow Jeep enthusiast. If you guys don't know what's knocking is there any hope for the rest of us??
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 17:03:34 GMT -5
Hey, you don't come a knocking if this Jeep is rocking? " Don't knock it pal!" Knock Knock, who's there? Tim's engine! Remember, it's made out of parts and steel, you can fix this! Be glad it isn't a 1700 pound diesel. If you need a rod or cam, or crank, just ask. You have a easy 2 weeks to fix it, so just find it and fix it. If all else fails, put your other jeep engine in it and go! You'll need a cold one when you arrive at Thirsty Dirt my friend. Signed knockleaker
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 3, 2014 18:15:36 GMT -5
I spoke with the Hawk on the phone this afternoon. We kicked a few ideas around. This problem will get solved. Tim is a good hearted fella, and resilient ! It will work out... And we will all say..,,, That's what it was!!!!  ? Why didn't I think of that!!!! |
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 3, 2014 18:20:06 GMT -5
I appreciate it Bruce. This has got to be excruciating for you guys too. I know what you're all thinking... "Look at the monkey! He's so stupid. Why does he throw his poop at people?" Not true at all .... I have the Moose for that!!!! Where in hell is he ?! |
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 3, 2014 20:12:45 GMT -5
I appreciate it Bruce. This has got to be excruciating for you guys too. I know what you're all thinking... "Look at the monkey! He's so stupid. Why does he throw his poop at people?" Oh....and politics is a sore subject !!! Just Sayin !!!!! |
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Post by rudycon on Sept 4, 2014 12:30:09 GMT -5
I have heard a washer in an FJ40 engine. The noise was much more of a tick than a knock or clank. The lock washer beat the crap out of the top of the piston, and got trapped in the valves a few times, but the guy bolted the head back down and kept driving it. He has no idea how he got a lockwasher down into the combustion chamber. I betcha it was on top of the carb flange. Remove nuts, lift up 1 bbl carb off the studs, tilt sideways while you pull it off the intake, back-side lock washer slides off the carb flange and right down the intake manifold. Sneaky!
Stay with it, Tim. Chin up! Offer stands. You can drive/ride/wrench on the Stude-a-willys. You can drag it out on Monday, I'll catch up to you and the stude-a-willys on Thursday or so.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 13:39:52 GMT -5
I've seen several kinds of foreign objects on top of pistons that were removed and the head bolted back on with no obvious side effects. Some not so lucky though.
We can do this Tim. I've got lots of parts, in fact I've got a block that's bored and ready with pistons and rings. I've got cranks, one or more are turned and ready.
A few years ago ( well maybe more than a few ) a friend blew the engine in his racecar on Saturday night at Cheyenne with a special Labor Day Race scheduled for Monday at Lakeside. We built an engine on Sunday, entirely of used parts and made the Monday race. The only things new in that engine were the gaskets and the oil. We can do this.
If you need it Tim, I'll be glad to drag out that block and get started on it. We are not going to need it, though. Really. Bruce
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 4, 2014 16:51:52 GMT -5
Sir Bruce ,
What a fantastic and kind post and gesture!
That's another reason why you are "The Stuff ""
Well that and the cow horn !!!....
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 5, 2014 12:56:18 GMT -5
Took my first day off in 2014 with the sole intention of finding my knock. I started the morning by polishing the fuel pump cam lobe. It was a little groved. HG suggested I inspect it carefullly for nicks or gouges that might cause the pump arm to bounce. I put the original fuel pump back in. I put the oil pan back on. I stole the starter out of my Black 2A. I fired up ODie....Knock, Knock... I somewhat expected it, but I was none the less hopeful. While running, I listened intently and was finally convinced the knock is at the top. I said out loud..."THAT KNOCK IS COMING FROM THE TOP END!!!" For a moment, I felt like one of those mentally troubled folks that walks around talking to themselves all day. So, on to my second plan of action for today. Pull the head. We all know this can be a challenge, but this how desperate I am to have a running Willys for the FCT. I've always been proud of how my engine compartment looks. I keep it clean and crisp. Nothing out of place. I felt a great deal of despair as I started to take it all apart. Greasy hand and coolant flying everywhere. A nick and scratch of paint hurts my heart, but that head is coming off. It was relatively painless. It took longer to take all the peripherals off than it took to pull the head. I mangled the gasket edges when removing, but a few studs and all nuts came loose without a break. The engine easily let go of its partner. Now the inspection. Lots and lots of carbon build up, but no oily spots or coolant breaks that I can see.  But wait...what's this...  I found this, welded to the top of #1. Could this be my knock? I don't know. Again, it looks thoroughly stuck. It probably wasn't bouncing around. I heading back out to do some cleaning and inspection. I'll keep you all posted. Tim |
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Post by rudycon on Sept 5, 2014 13:05:55 GMT -5
Wow. Cool , Tim.
Yeah. That was not bouncing around. But is there a mark on the head where the screw was hitting?
It would explain the instantaneous, "hey what's that noise" symptom.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 14:12:19 GMT -5
Good Job! It probably was your knock!!
It's hard to gauge the size in your photo, but you might be missing a butterfly screw from the carb ...
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HILLBILLIS CANT LOG WTF OVER
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Post by HILLBILLIS CANT LOG WTF OVER on Sept 5, 2014 15:45:06 GMT -5
INTERESTING FIND..FUNNY HOW THINGS GET INTO AN ENGINE... 
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 5, 2014 16:10:58 GMT -5
Gents! I am nearly ready to call this little screw discovery, the cause of my KNOCK. I spent some time cleaning the deck in preparation for a new head seal. I didn't even think to look at the head. Upon further inspection...  Close up of piston position #1...  Ya think this might have been making a little noise? Now, what Gary mentioned... About a month ago, and in preparation for the FCT, I removed the carb and cleaned it thoroughly. I was surprised to find a small brass screw missing from the throttle plate. The other screw was still there but was loose. When I rebuilt the Carb a couple years ago, I may have forgotten to tighten down those little screws, or I didn't tighten them enough. I had a spare, so I installed it, then never really gave it another thought. Now, I know where the little screw went...into the intake manifold, sitting there waiting to ruin my vacation plans. Funny thing, I've driven ODie a half dozen times since cleaning the carb. And who knows when the little screw fell out. Could have been last year for all I know. Never even a hiccup. So, why did the little F-ing screw decide to get sucked into the cylinder after I installed a new pump...and adjusted the valves?? FCT, Here I Come!!! Wait...I'm getting ahead of myself. This may, or may not have been the cause of my knock. I'm going out to clean my head. Once done I will clean myself up, then take my Wife to Woody's for a pizza and some beer. Regardless if this was my gremlin or not, I am going to relish in it for the evening. Tomorrow, I will re-install the head and give'er a test start. Tim |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 16:38:46 GMT -5
That was your knock. At least it didn't seem to get the cylinder walls, but it had to go through the intake valve to get there. Check the valves. Check your piston. I've wondered about those screws myself. I try and peen them when I have taken them out and re installed. Not easy to do. The english put split screws in their SU carb throttle plates. You spread them after installing. Squeeze them before removal. Maybe red locktite? I'll bet you are going to go back to the new screw now huh? Bruce is the winner here. He's the one that said something is up top inside. Amazing. John
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 16:58:19 GMT -5
I'm with John. That was it. No doubt. I'm not a betting man but I'd bet a weeks pay on it. Nice soft brass screw, nice soft aluminum piston, good hard iron head, no real damage, outside of an impression in the piston that won't really hurt anything anyway, probably. BW
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 5, 2014 18:06:56 GMT -5
So I guess you got screwed
You've got a screw loose
Always screwing around with that Will-is?
Screws fall out all the time sir...the worlds an imperfect place!!
That's enough!!!!....
Glad you got it figured out .
FCT here he comes !!!
Enjoy Woody's !!
That place is Awesome! You and Rachel have a beer or two on me !!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 18:23:40 GMT -5
For starters, "Great Find", and you will sleep sound tonight  . I would bet the brass screw was hiding out in the intake manifold for a while, then after your tune up you were running hard (Full throttle) and it was sucked from the intake. You are lucky, it could have got between the valve and the head and bent the valve. Another point, this is why the screws in the throttle shaft are brass (soft)...........  so how much did the missing screw cost you!  . See ya in a couple weeks Sir Tim, Lee  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 21:17:58 GMT -5
You, sir, have given me hope and inspiration! Well done.
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 5, 2014 21:21:20 GMT -5
Now that I'm thoroughly gorged on Woodys pizza and Coors beer, I'm back here to thank all contributors at Haines Garage. All respondents are responsible for the potential resolution to this journey. Without you guys I would have pissing in the wind and wondering why I'm wet. After reading your responses, I'm feeling pretty confident that this is my culprit. If I were a better mechanic, I may have been able to avoid tearing an entire engine down (numerous times) just to find a feakin screw stuck to a piston. None the less, I hope we all learned from my ignorance. I learned to never assume a screw is tight enough. I learned that a knock really can come from the top. I also learned a little bit about my GPW. It's as original as the day it rolled off the assembly line. All journals are the original size. Pistons...STD. It's nice to know that 70 years later, this engine is still chugging along, and could be rebuilt to stay a viable engine for many years to comes. Just days ago, I felt snake bit. Now I feel blessed. I have a good engine, and a great place to come for help. Haines Garage... Thanks again to Rudy, Leaker, Lee, Hillbilly, HG, Bruce, Gary, Moose, Zooke and anyone else I may have left off. You guys are freaking awesome. To answer Lee's question on cost...aside from the countless hours spent under a Willys, it cost me a full engine gasket set, a Bendix spring, and some bloody knuckles.  Tim |
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 5, 2014 21:31:49 GMT -5
Glad you got it figured.
Seems there is always something that can happen that no one has seen before.
I need a vid here of your triumph!
Think of the stories already to tell .
I actually called woody 's
Wanted to pull a stunt.
Was going to send you beers to your table .
I think the dude who answered the phone thought I was prank calling him.
Oh well... Guess you will just have to come visit me in SC!
Have a Great weekend my Colorado compadre!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 21:33:49 GMT -5
Look at the bright side, it's better for it happen at, and to have found it at home than on top of Mt. Princeton......
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?
. I would bet the brass screw was hiding out in the intake manifold for a while, then after your tune up you were running hard (Full throttle) and it was sucked from the intake. You are lucky, it could have got between the valve and the head and bent the valve. Another point, this is why the screws in the throttle shaft are brass (soft)........... 
so how much did the missing screw cost you! 
.
