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Post by athawk11 on Sept 1, 2014 19:28:18 GMT -5
Pulled plugs. Turn engine using a wrench on front pulley. No noise.
Pulled coil wire. Plugs out. Turned engine with starter. No noise other than the whoosh of piston pressure.
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Post by gary aka gmcjr on Sept 1, 2014 19:35:36 GMT -5
Your not floundring, I still think its something simple!
Lets see...
Like others have pointed out, It does sound like its happening once a revolution, and its steady.
The wrist pins I've heard are a muffled double knock, more detectable at a slow idle. Excessive end play is more of a random knock, and pushing the clutch in usaully affects it.
FWIW, I'm grasping at thin straws, Ive heard severe exhuast leaks that sound like knocks before, but they really come out under acceleration.
If it was me, and I'm not as knowlegdeable as most but, Id run a quick compresion test, just to see.....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 19:50:40 GMT -5
If it were a wrist pin, and you removed the pan.......and had some one turn the engine by hand. The piston on the bottom of its stroke, would you not be able to see some slop ?. Lee  |
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 1, 2014 20:16:38 GMT -5
Gary, I've had an exhaust leak between the manifold and pipe. Gasket blew. It did knock similar to my current sound. I double checked all gaskets to make sure it wasn't this same issue.
I'm going to pull the pan off again tomorrow. I'm going to check the wrist pins and look for any excessive movement on the rods. If I don't find anything, I guess I'll pull the head. I've had a really bad day.
Tim
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Post by Gary on Sept 1, 2014 20:50:08 GMT -5
I feel your frustration!!!
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Post by zooke581 on Sept 1, 2014 21:23:08 GMT -5
I know what you are going through. But I don't have an answer. Just getting used to the ol' flathead after a 30 year hiatus.
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 1, 2014 21:27:53 GMT -5
Sometimes you just gotta say " f them ole Jeeps"
When you do though, you will wake up in the morning with a new idea! You will get this, I know you will. Sorry I couldn't have been a better help.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 21:42:51 GMT -5
Tim, if you find you need a rod or other part, let me know and I will NDA it to you. I have lots of nice rods. Lee |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 21:52:07 GMT -5
A wrist pin loose usually knocks only every other revolution, when pushing on the exhaust stroke changes to pulling on the intake stroke. Often it will double up on decel or when you pull the plug wire for that cylinder. Now, if it's slid over and is gouging the cylinder wall, that's a whole 'nuther story. BW
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Post by rudycon on Sept 1, 2014 22:27:35 GMT -5
sleep on it.  Hey wait a minute. One more whacky idea. I though for SURE I lost a rod bearing in the toyota once. Did all 6 of the rod bearings and they were all OK before and after according to my plasti-gage. That tap-tap-tap was still there! and still getting worse. get this....It was a FAN BELT CHUNKING OUT! The more pieces came off, the louder the tap tap tap got. I felt like an idiot for a long time on that one. pushed it out of my mind. Easy to check for. I hope that's it! |
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Post by rudycon on Sept 1, 2014 22:34:24 GMT -5
May sound stupid but take the fanbelt off and run it. Lee Ah shoot. I found this after my toyota chunked out fan belt idea. Never mind. It is a good trick though. Especially when you have 3 fan belts. and yeah. oh boy did I feel stupid for doing rod bearings to fix a fan belt. I also see that no belt = same noise. well bummer. sleep on it anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 6:22:08 GMT -5
A wrist pin, broken piston, or rod bearing should have quieted by pulling plug wires while running. You have triple checked valve adjustment and found no broken springs. I don't hear a exhaust miss either. No exhaust leak making the clack noise. Fan belt removed eliminates a bad generator or water pump. So, since you are going back in, check camshaft end float, oil float clearance, rod contacting inner oil gallery plug, look for fresh marks on the rods from touching something, possible flywheel/pressureplate noise, crankshaft endfloat ( should change noise by depressing clutch petal) . Spark plugs show no signs of a piece of metal banging around on top of piston? You changed fuel pumps. If a hard seat came loose, wouldn't it change exhaust to a miss? I'm out of ideas. We'll have to wait until you operate and look for signs of metal contact. Holy cow. Oil
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 7:34:15 GMT -5
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 2, 2014 18:17:19 GMT -5
I have watched all day.....
Anything ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 18:28:06 GMT -5
MY $$ IS ON TIMING CHAIN
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 2, 2014 20:58:47 GMT -5
Worked all day...came home and made a mess of my garage. I'm snake bit. I'll explain in a moment.
Started by checking timing. Only thing that could have changed the timing is if the distributor came loose. Figured I may have it timed too far advanced. Not the problem. Advance...retard...same noise.
Did a compression test. It's not great...but not horrible either. All cylinders tested mid to low 70s.
Drained the fresh oil. No odd smells. No coolant.
Pulled the pan again...pulled every bearing cap...inspected every bearing, again. No noticeable damage to the journals or bearings.
I put a micro on the journals to see if the engine had ever gone through a rebuild. Nope. The rod journals measured out to 1.9365. Manual says original was 1.9375 to 1.9383 . So, I am within 1000s of an inch. Unless they are oval shaped, I don't think the crank even needs work.
I tried to pull and push each rod to locate movement. Nothing. I checked the wrist pins. All tight. It's hard to see, but I saw no scoring on the cylinder walls.
I pushed and pulled on the crank and cam to see if I have any end play issues. No movement. Bottom line, I don't think the knock is coming from the bottom end.
I climbed underneath with the pan off. Rachel turned the key. I watched and listened intently for anything odd. I could almost make out a knock coming from the front of the engine. Rocker arm on the fuel pump? So, I pulled the pump, then climbed back under. The slight knock was still there.
Figured I may as well see what's up on the front, so I pulled the timing cover. I have the modern style "Ricard Sanders" timing chain and sprockets. Nothing loose. Chain tight. Rachel turned the key while I was under it again. The noise is not the timing chain or any components on the front side.
Climbed back under. While key turned, I could just make out a knock ( at least I think its a knock) toward the front. It's really hard to tell. There is a lot going on down there. Trying to hear the knock while looking at a spinning crank and cam is a little disorienting.
Wife kept turning key at my request. Turn key. Listen. Turn key. Watch. Turn key...and so on. Here is where the "snake bit" comment comes into play...I broke the Bendix spring on the starter. Great.
This effectively ended my evening of fun. I was just about to start pulling the head to see if carbon build up is causing an early detonation. Instead, I said F*@# it. Came inside to buy a new starter drive spring and to report my failure.
I just don't understand it. It's a combustion engine...not rocket science.
The really disappointing thing is, there isn't a smoking gun. If I just knew the problem... big or small.... I could dig in and fix it.
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Post by Haines Garage on Sept 2, 2014 21:45:29 GMT -5
Wow ... For lack of a better word .
You have to get it....you just have to !
Been thinking about this all day!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 21:58:18 GMT -5
Pull the head, you need a complete gasket set by now anyway  . Lee |
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Post by zooke581 on Sept 2, 2014 21:58:38 GMT -5
Glad you found it. Sorry it was so complicated. I have done nearly similar. I seem to gravitate towards the complicated because of todays engines when working on the simple ones. It's hard to step back into simple when you have done complicated for so long.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 8:03:19 GMT -5
I know you are damn tired of this. I really feel bad for you. A thought occured to me to go back to the valves and set them up fairly tight for a test run to see if the noise goes away. I know you went to .014, but I'm still wondering about a lifter stem clearance. It sure looks like none of the valves are sticky and one is not returning fast enough. I've never had a go devil fuel pump that made that noise either. Did you check the oil float? No fresh external marks on the rods? Holy Cow. A tough one indeed! Oil
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 3, 2014 9:59:30 GMT -5
Zooke, I haven't found my problem yet. The broken starter is just an 'addition' to my woes.
Leaker, I did check the float for clearance issues. It's clean with no contact marks. It doesn't look like anything on the underside is making contact with something it shouldn't.
Once I get the replace spring for the starter, I'll be able to get back at it. Where do you think I should take the valve adjustment? They were originally tighter than .14. I don't how tight. I originally had a little puff-puff noise from the exhaust pipe, so I knew I needed to make a change.
From what I can tell, this GPW has never gone through a rebuild. The valve springs aren't broken, and they don't seem to lag or get hung up, but could one be weak enough to allow a knock? It kind of makes sense it that I was driving with no knock, then bamb....knock. As if something just gave up. Heck, I was hoping to find a broken spring. This would all be behind me at this point.
Tim
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 3, 2014 10:12:29 GMT -5
Zooke, I haven't found my problem yet. The broken starter is just an 'addition' to my woes.
Leaker, I did check the float for clearance issues. It's clean with no contact marks. It doesn't look like anything on the underside is making contact with something it shouldn't.
Once I get the replacement spring for the starter, I'll be able to get back at it. Where do you think I should take the valve adjustment? They were originally tighter than .14. I don't how tight. I originally had a little puff-puff noise from the exhaust pipe, so I knew I needed to make a change.
From what I can tell, this GPW has never gone through a rebuild. The valve springs aren't broken, and they don't seem to lag or get hung up, but could one be weak enough to allow a knock? A broken spring would kind of makes sense in that I was driving with no knock, then bamb....knock. As if something just gave up. Heck, I was hoping to find a broken spring. This would all be behind me at this point.
I'm still inclined to pull the head just to see what's up. I have a little time to kill while waiting for the new starter spring. Could a chunk of broken piston make a consistent knock like that? What else could cause a knock on the top?
I really don't want to miss the FCT. Time is short.
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 10:13:30 GMT -5
Maybe .006 just for the test. If it quiets, then open them back up one at a time to find which one. While cranking with the starter, take the plugs out and see if it makes the knock. John
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Post by athawk11 on Sept 3, 2014 10:18:50 GMT -5
.006...that's tight. I give it a try. I was cranking with the plugs out, until I broke my starter. I can't hear a knock at the top with the plugs out. I can only hear what I think is a knock, at the front, while under the Willys with the pan off.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 11:21:43 GMT -5
Well, you would have seen a bad rod bearing. No marks anywhere, no broken springs, nothing in the timing chest, no end float issues, not the float, if it isn't a tappet noise, then all that's left is a bad piston somehow. I would have thought taking a plug wire off would have quieted it if it was a piston. This one is sure not responding to any test. What a pain. You did put a hearing device on the fuel pump when running? With a hearing device, the general noise is very loud and at the same beat you hear without the device. John
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