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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 19:07:48 GMT -5
Tim, I hate when this happens!. I once had a similar problem on a 56 CJ5, being young and dumb, I Installed a fresh engine and had trouble getting the input shaft to go into the clutch disc so I used longer bolts and forced it together  . It did not go that hard but I did bend the clutch hub in the disc, that made the disc wobble and it would not disengage  . I am not saying this is your issue but make sure your disc is not warped or the hub area bent. I would try and overpull the fork back and see if the disc is dragging. One more thought, did you install the disc the right way! if not the dampener springs rub on the flywheel bolts and will drag the disc. HTH, Lee |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 21:10:08 GMT -5
What up fellas? Just a short update. I'm troubled. Very, Very Troubled. Tim We all are, Tim. |
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 12, 2014 23:01:57 GMT -5
 Very funny Moose! Good thought Lee. I did hit a wall for a short time while installing the transmission. I thought it was the new tight bushing. I twisted and pushed the tranny in. I didn't get too rough, but may have been hung up on the clutch. not sure how to tell if I bent it. Any ideas? Tim
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 8:18:30 GMT -5
Check out the throwout bearing carrier that slides on the transmission nose. I think I read where there are two different lengths of them which would put the bearing farther forward or back. I ran into this on a Chevrolet 6cylinder to V 8 swap. Three finger pressure plate and diaphram pressure plates on a chevy took different throwout carriers. Just a thought. John
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 8:39:25 GMT -5
I can't tell in the pictures, and not to be stupid here, you did get the double armed cross shaft that pulls on the cluth cable in correct with the long/short arm orientation in right? The side with the spring in it goes against the transmission. Another problem is if the bushing in the flywheel is too tight, it locks on the input shaft of the transmission and always turns the shaft and makes it look like the clutch isn't disengauging from the tranny. If you checked the fit before assembly, this isn't it. Grasping here. John
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 17:30:10 GMT -5
Well you would need to remove the clutch disc and spin it on a dowel or a dummy shaft to see if it wobbles. Sir Leaker raised a very good point on the pilot bearing dragging. I would still overpull the fork and see if it releases, what I mean is unhook the release cable from the crossshaft and pull on it with a ratchet strap or a small chainbinder to the point that you have all the movement used up, then see if it will go into gear or is releasing. If it releases then you have a parts issue, if it does not release then you have a bent disc hub/dragging pilot bushing. Simple troubleshooting before disassembly!. Lee  |
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 14, 2014 11:04:37 GMT -5
I got the new fulcrum and fork last night. I slipped the drive train back in. I ran out of steam, so I still have some to do before testing it further.
I didn't find a distorted clutch disc, but for the heck of it, I pulled the new bushing and test fit it on the input shaft. (I had done this prior to assembly and the bushing spun nicely on the shaft.) Well, I must have gotten a little aggressive when installing it, because it no longer spun freely. It looks like I mashed the inside edge enough to knock it out of round. I had an extra bushing, so I slipped it in with more care.
Hopefully I'll be cruising the streets of Arvada by the weekend.
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 13:06:01 GMT -5
I've had to rheem them out after installation. They compress some with the machined fit. Try a old input in it after it's installed. John
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 14, 2014 13:18:20 GMT -5
I've had to rheem them out after installation. They compress some with the machined fit. John I hate to hear this. I'm going to be bummed out if I have to pull this apart again. It's not easy fighting that whole back side on to the engine by yourself. I wish I had an old input shaft. Much of what I'm going through could have been avoided. I even looked for one on eBay, but they wanted too much for an old worn out part. Tim |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 15:03:04 GMT -5
PM some members in your area. I'll bet one has one he'll loan you. I do and will, but it's 400 miles away. Bruce W. up by Fort Collins? Lew Ladwig?, check it out. John
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 21:10:16 GMT -5
Sound like your problem was found . If everything is lined up properly and the pilot fits the bushing it should slip together easily. |
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Post by Haines Garage on Aug 14, 2014 22:50:38 GMT -5
Tim this is the one thing I like best about you !
A Master at the Art of the Will -Is ! And still asking questions , and sharing your experiences!
You always come out on top ! It must be that dig in , never give up spirit you have!
Video the triumph !!! Can't wait to see it !
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 19, 2014 19:23:07 GMT -5
HG, you're too kind. Just a Willys hack doing the best I can with what I've got.
A short, but painful update. Well, not too painful.
Pulled the drive train for the third and final time.
Anyone else notice how good you get at stuff like this when you have to do it two or three times in a row?
Anyway, after input from the studs at Haines Garage, and not wanting to have to pull the drivetrain again, I decided to address every possible issue. The result of this choice is that I have no idea what my original problem was.
I installed a new pivot fulcrum and clutch fork. The new clutch disc had a very slight warp. The old disc was, well, pretty new, so I put it back in. The bushing was pulled, then slid onto the input shaft. It seemed a little tight, so I reamed it out a bit.
I re-installed the drive train and my temp seating. I fired up the engine, then pushed in the clutch. I let out a sigh of relief, then took the chassis for a spin.
Everything went fairly well except shifting into 2nd gear. Synchros work great, but the shifter just won't throw the gear far enough to keep it engaged. It just barely catches, but occasionally slips out.
I inspected the shift fork and found some decent wear groves on both sides of the fork. The wear is even, but I am missing 3/64" of material. I don't know if this is enough to cause my problem, but I decided to get a new fork anyway. I will also trim some material from the poppet groove, as described in a Willys memo.
This will probably be the last project I do on Whitey for a while. In preparation for the Fall Colors Tour, I have a number of small projects planned for the OD Willys. New brake shoes, valve adjustment, new fuel pump, oil change, etc... I'm also putting together a repair kit. I've never broken down at a FCT, but if I ever do, I'll hopefully be able to take care of myself without swiping parts from other FCT participants.
Tim
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Post by Haines Garage on Aug 19, 2014 19:52:40 GMT -5
I may be waaaaayyyyyy off,
But I am going to stab !
F that sealed bearing business !
Willis did not use it, maybe Sir Hawk should not as well ?
Also spring and. " dogs" on the syncros installed 100 % correct and new?!
I really have no idea, just guessing.
You will get it , and say "That's All It Was !!! "
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Post by rudycon on Aug 20, 2014 8:25:13 GMT -5
Tim: I might be able to stop by after work this week if you just want some extra hands/eyes around when you stab the trans.
Edit:
Hmmm. I think I missed the bus on this one. anyway, I still might be able to help after work some time. Everything is "on the way home" when you have a 40 mile commute!
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Post by Haines Garage on Aug 20, 2014 9:15:01 GMT -5
Tim: I might be able to stop by after work this week if you just want some extra hands/eyes around when you stab the trans. Edit: Hmmm. I think I missed the bus on this one. anyway, I still might be able to help after work some time. Everything is "on the way home" when you have a 40 mile commute! Now that right there is Awesome !!!  |
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 20, 2014 21:21:03 GMT -5
Rudy, I just might take you up on your offer. I live in Arvada. I'm going to replace the poppets and fork in the shift tower. I'm hopeful this will solve the current issue, but I still like to cross paths with the local Willys folks. In fact, if you can, try to make the FCT this year. You will meet many of the Haines Garage Knights.
The Leaker and Lee to name a few. Should be epic. I wish HG could make it again this year. He would surely be on cloud nine.
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 7:31:59 GMT -5
Make sure the new fork doesn't wobble around on the shaft that it's pinned to. That could also keep it from going all the way in. When I replaced mine , I used a roll pin and then safety wired it through the pin. I didn't have any of the original type rivit pins to put back in. I also shimmed the spring a bit and holy cow, it took a while for the spring to lighten up a bit, it was a little hard to get the ball and spring to work easy. It doesn't ever pop out after that. John
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 21, 2014 19:12:03 GMT -5
Make sure the new fork doesn't wobble around on the shaft that it's pinned to. That could also keep it from going all the way in. When I replaced mine , I used a roll pin and then safety wired it through the pin. I didn't have any of the original type rivit pins to put back in. I also shimmed the spring a bit and holy cow, it took a while for the spring to lighten up a bit, it was a little hard to get the ball and spring to work easy. It doesn't ever pop out after that. John Awesome ideas Leaker! I have new poppet balls, but no new springs. I was just lamenting this fact and was thinking about heading to Ace Hardware to see what they have. Shim the spring...brilliant! Tim |
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Post by Haines Garage on Aug 21, 2014 20:23:43 GMT -5
Maybe I missed something , but I am talking about the spring that presses out the syncro dogs , or keepers I think they call them.
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Post by athawk11 on Aug 21, 2014 22:18:34 GMT -5
Maybe I missed something , but I am talking about the spring that presses out the syncro dogs , or keepers I think they call them. HG, the springs you mentioned are performing as they should. The gears shift flawlessly so I'm looking for stuff that is still old and could cause my trouble. The tranny just slips back out of 2nd whether it's under load or decelerating. It feels like its not slipping on far enough...or it's not getting locked into the gear. Thus my focus on the shift fork..(not being thrown far enough on to 2nd) and the poppets...( not holding in 2nd once I've finished shifting to 2nd). Tim |
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Post by Haines Garage on Aug 22, 2014 8:48:40 GMT -5
Got you.
Just throwing ideas out there.
Keep us posted.
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Post by athawk11 on Oct 19, 2014 15:53:30 GMT -5
I replaced 2nd gear without removing the transmission from the chassis. Keep in mind, this is on a rolling chassis, so I had access to both the top and rear of the transmission. If you were going to try this with an assembled Willys, I think you could still do it, but it would be easier if you had a friend up top while you're down and under. He would have to know exactly what you're trying to do. Also, you would clearly need to drop the TC, and drive shafts. After removing the TC, Drive Shafts, and Shift Tower, I tied the main shaft off so it would stay together. I slipped in a shopping bag to catch the roller bearings.  Initially, I was going to try this without even draining the transmission fluid, but you all know why this wouldn't work. The minute you remove the lower bolts that hold the TC to the tranny, it will start to leak through the bolt holes. Next, I remove my tie off and started to move the shaft out the back. While doing this, I slid the synchro hub as far forward as I could without having the three little dogs pop out. Here is a bad photo of me pointing at the hub and how far forward I have to slide it...  I then pulled and lifted the shaft up, over the cluster gear, and out the back. Of course, the roller bearings all fell out, but my plastic bag caught them all...  I took the main shaft to the work bench and removed the ring at the front of the shaft. I pulled the synchro hub off as an assembly, then slid off 2nd gear...   Old 2nd gear. The gear itself looks okay, but the chevrons are chewed up pretty good...  New second gear USA made from Walcks...  I slid on 2nd gear after coating it with some petroleum jelly. I slippped the synchro hub assemble back on, then removed the rear bearing, plate and 1st gear. It's easier to guide the shaft back in to the bearings without this stuff on the shaft...  I loaded the roller bearings using ample amounts of petroleum jelly...  Once again, I pulled the synchro hub assembly as far forward as I can without losing the 3 little dogs. I slid the shaft in and over the cluster gear, then inserted the front of the shaft into the roller bearings. While doing this, I carefully slid the hub rearward....  Once the shaft was in place, I slid on 1st gear, the plate and the bearing, then tied the shaft back to the front of the case so it wouldn't slip out. Done...  Not a bad job. I was able to complete the whole thing in a couple hours. I haven't put the TC back on yet. Unfortunately. I had other chores. Tim |
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Post by Haines Garage on Oct 19, 2014 16:00:38 GMT -5
Looking great!
And see,,,, Tips and Trick my friend!
Love it.
Nice a Clean!
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Post by zooke581 on Oct 19, 2014 17:32:07 GMT -5
Fantastic job. I have to pull mine out again to replace second gear. It has also been suggested to me to replace the syncro clutch as well because of wear on the outer bands chevrons as well. Your ideas on that?
Driving mine today it just kept popping out of second on decell.
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. It did not go that hard but I did bend the clutch hub in the disc, that made the disc wobble and it would not disengage 
. I am not saying this is your issue but make sure your disc is not warped or the hub area bent. I would try and overpull the fork back and see if the disc is dragging. One more thought, did you install the disc the right way! if not the dampener springs rub on the flywheel bolts and will drag the disc.
Very funny Moose!
