Crank seized

[Deleted]

Ok...here is what I've discovered: jeep doesn't run.

I thought I would begin with tracking the spark down. In the process, I discovered that the fan wasn't spinning and in turn, neither was the crank shaft. Thinking maybe the starter was jammed, I rocked the jeep. Didn't fix it. I removed the starter and found the spring in the bendix was missing and a large steel washer was rattling around on the shaft. I used my flexible magnet and went down the starter hole on the bell housing. I fished out pieces of the bendix spring and half of another massive washer that appears to be from the starter. Thus, there is great speculation that the rest of the washer is still in there and could possibly be wedged between the bell housing and flywheel. But this is speculation.

Could that be enough to bind the flywheel and stop the crank, or did the flywheel/crank bind and that caused to starter to break?

Lastly, if I can't fish the remaining bits out...what next? Remove engine or remove transmission?

Fun!

[Deleted]

Yes, and I would remove the engine.

MHO, Lee

[Deleted]

Yes to which chicken or the egg question: starter broke and jammed flywheel or crank seized and broke starter??

By the way...I'm loving the yard art post on a separate thread!

[Deleted]

That sucks either way in my book. Most likely the starter is the cause. Hopefully when it wedged, it didn't take out some other parts. It won't unwedge in a reversed direction?

[Deleted]

Is this the new to you GPW? Is this the first time you tried to spin the engine?

If it was a running jeep.... I assuming since you where tracking spark problems, that the engine was freely turning recently, I would think the starter bendix parts are wedged somewhere. Running engines usually don't sieze with out some sort of snap, crackle, pop. If I'm being redundant, I'm not trying to be a wise ass, just my thought process....

If it's been setting quite awhile, it could be something like that one of the piston rings stuck to the cylinder because of moisture, when you tried the starter, the bendix gave up the ghost. Hopefully a simple fix.

Ether way, the starter parts have got to come out, I'm sorry to say

[Deleted]

This is the new GPW. (It's really not mine. It's a friend's, but I'll let Schiller believe it's mine!).

It hasn't been running for awhile. The owner had believed it was due to fuel problems. He's military and the jeep will sit for periods of time. Before, the jeep has been mechanically sound and hasn't had any issues.

He next thought his battery had gone kaput...hit the starter and it makes two noises like it wants to crank and then nothing happens. I began, yesterday, by taking the battery to OReillys. It checked out fine. My first inclination was that I would begin by tracking the spark to make sure it gets to the plugs. I stuck my leg in the passenger side to press the foot starter and was holding the #1 plug wire to a ground point. When I pressed the foot starter, that's when I discovered the fan not moving. Ok, so I pop the top off the dizzy and I'll check the spark at the points. I grab my hand crank and that's when I discover it won't spin.

I put a large socket on the crank nut (thinking I could reverse it) but that only loosened the nut. I stuck a hand into the starter's hole, but couldn't get the flywheel to move I counter clockwise.

I'm not über excited about pulling the engine...since I'll be doing that on my for sale jeep in a few weeks, but if I must, I must.

If it gets to that, there is one bolt on the bellhousing that looks like a butthead...the one behind the gas pedal linkage. How does one get to that one?

Also, I'm wondering if Gmc is onto a possibility...if the jeep sat for awhile, maybe a piston did get stuck. Do you squirt some penetrating oil in there, pull the head or pull the oil pan? Or all of the above?

[Deleted]

I fished out the rest of the bendix. Ouch.



The one standing upright is a spare that I have. The dangling washer, the broken washer and the gear should all be one piece.

So now, I think Jr. might be right...lack of use/sitting for a prolonged period of time maybe made the pistons stuck. He tried to crank it, sheared the bendix and since the starter can't budge the flywheel, he thought the battery was dead.

Ok...now...do I squirt some PB blaster into the cylinders from the spark plugs? Or go with Marvel Mystery Oil? Or something better?

I would think this would happen before popping the top or oil pan, yes? No?

[Deleted]

Moosey, take off the front rubber motor mounts, and then lower the front of the engine. That will give you room to get to the "butthead". First, can you put the Jeep in gear and rock it rewards to spin the engine opposite ? If it has part lodged from trying to actually run, then you may have no choice but pull the engine. Sometimes you can use a flat bar a pry on the starter ring with leverage, but you don't want to get too rough. Just ship it to me for disposal, I'll solve your pain. LOL, John

[Deleted]

ATF with some acetone mixed in. Were any of the spark plugs rusty looking when you took them out? I hate stuck Jeep engines. If it's been rusting for years, they are tough to break loose. If it's a light recent stick, penetrant and rocking the Jeep back and forth in gear usually breaks them free. The rear plug hole gets water off the cowl first, so that's the one it usually sticks first. Sure is nice of you to help. Lee wants the seats------LOL. John

[Deleted]

What John said!!


If there is any thought that the rings are stuck, or even if the engine has been setting for a several months. A once or so of ATF, Marval Mystery Oil, or whatever your favorite concoction down the cylinders is cheap insurance. She'll smoke like hell for a few minutes, but it's better than broken rings!!

[Deleted]

I don't remember doing anything special to get to the bell housing bolt you mentioned, other than it was slow going. Earlleaker has a great idea with pulling the front mounts!!! That's why he's the man!

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2014 7:35:21 GMT -5 @oilleaker1 said:

Sure is nice of you to help. Lee wants the seats------LOL. John

Bwahahahahaha! Yeah, despite what HG says about me coupled with my idiotic behavior here, I am a nice guy.

Automatic Transmission Fluid and Acetone? Really? If I get the engine started, will that stuff safely burn away? I imagine an oil change should occur before starting?

The owner last tried starting it 14 months ago. At that time, the engine behaved normally when trying to start (turned over with foot starter). That's why he was leaning towards a fuel issue and began investigating that route. I imagine that the bendix sheared off in the last few days when he tried before delivering it to he? Just an assumption.

I'll be away from the garage this weekend, so I'd like to attempt the route of soaking for a few days and then rocking it.

Tell me more about ATF and acetone, please!

[Deleted]

Well, I'll be darned...

link

[Gary C aka gmcjr]

14 months long enough to cause enough rust to cause the rings to stick, especially in a humid area or a area that has a lot of temperature swings. It is always a good ides to pour some light oil or ATF in the cylinders if your going to store a engine for 6 months or longer.



What has me concerned is the fact he started to investigate a fuel issue, I wouldn't think he would start to consider a fuel issue if the engine didn't even turn over.



Yes, the ATF/acetone will burn way. Acetone evaporates real easy, so it will not be in the engine oil very long. ATF is mostly detergent, it will help clean the engine. Fwiw, my '98 Chevy Z71 has a lifter that sticks from time to time, I dump 1/2 quart of ATF down the crankcase a few days before I change oil.

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2014 10:41:44 GMT -5 Gary C aka gmcjr said:

What has me concerned is the fact he started to investigate a fuel issue, I wouldn't think he would start to consider a fuel issue if the engine didn't even turn over.

14 months ago he did say it was turning over, but it couldn't get it to run. That's when he started investigating fuel. Eventually he gave up on it.

I've mixed up some of your "home brew" stuff. The waiting period is the hardest part! I did rock the jeep a bit and I could see the flywheel turn (albeit ever so slightly) like a quarter of an inch forward and backwards. I've got it in 3rd gear. Is there a better gear to use or does it really matter?

[Deleted]

If you use a lower gear it will harder to turn the engine by rocking..

If you can move the crank, it's a good sign..

[Deleted]

UNSTUCK!!! Thanks, guys!!

Time to begin troubleshooting.

[Deleted]

ATF and acetone is a homemade penetrationg oil, and ATF is a high detergent cleaning type oil. I don't have any formula on how to mix it. Would have to look it up. Any movement is what you are looking for. Sounds like it will free up. Is the front pully turning too? Rock it in 2nd or 3rd. 3rd probably is best. If you are hearing a clunk, them you may have more metal down in there wedging things. Call a surgeon and have him bring his orthoscope over and take a look------LOL. He'll only charge 15,000.00 for a service call. Oil

[Deleted]

Crap your last post wasn't there when I responded. Good for you, unstuck is good. Oil

[Deleted]

Alright, guys...

I've been troubleshooting the spark. I can get it all the way to the plug, but the manual is vague. It says "good". What is good? I can pull a spark plug, still connected to the distributor and hold it near a ground and get a tiny little blue spark.

Earlier, I sprayed some starting fluid in the carb and noticed some leak near the base where the throttle stop screw is. With the choke pulled out, I can't imagine that is a big enough air gap to not let it start. Is it?

[Deleted]

That is a very good question. If you can see it at the spark plug electrode, then it's most likely OK. Timing and fuel will be next. If it was running before, and you haven't changed anything, try a little gas down the carb and see if it will try and run. If someone did screw with it: find TDC on # 1. Then back off to 5 degrees before TDC. See if the rotor is pointing at the # one wire. See if the points are just beginning to open. 1342 firing order. Is the flywheel marked? You said it's a CJ gear drive motor correct? Or is it front cover marked? The doctor will be out for a while, so see my assistant. The captain. Say ?Willis and he'll be your friend. Use him until you get it running, and then say Willys-------- Signed Oilly PS------------are you sure you got all the stuff out of the bellhousing? If not----Wow.

[Deleted]

The answer to your carb question, is no. The starting fluid is more than likely dripping from around the throttle shaft. I haven't seen a wo that didn't leak a little there. If it's bad enough, it will cause frustrating idling problems, but it shouldn't prevent it from popping off on ether. By the way, ether is hell on engines, mostly on high compression diesels though..

A good spark? A good spark is a fat blue on that jumps at least 3/8".
Why does it have to jump 3/8" when it only has to jump a teensie weensie .030" spark plug gap?

I'm glad you asked! It has to jump a greater distance at atmospheric pressure so it can jump the teensie weensie gap when there additional heat and a lot more pressure from compression. Increasing the pressure increases the electrical resistance of air.

I agree with Dr. Oily, pour a ounce or so of gas down the ole Carter and see what she does! I bet he's even got a PHD to make it official!!!

If you don't already know, I can tell how to statically time the engine with a muti meter! It's easy..

Signed,

Gary aka gmcjr aka Sparkchaser!

Edit: Also, while I agree the ATF/ Acetone ( I use a 3:1 ratio) is handy dandy stuff. For most uses, I use ATF mixed with some good ole #2 Diesel Fuel.

Again, I'm glad you asked....lol! So I'll tell you why, while the acetone thins the mix and is a good detergent in itself, it evaporates very quickly, and is on the volatile side, especially if you spray on a hot bolt. Deesell fuel also has some detergent qualities (not as good as acetone) , but it seems to stay in the mix longer, which keeps it thin and creeping through rust. Just my opinion, you know what they say about opinions.....

[Haines Garage]

That is about perfect advice as I have read!
Very basic these engines are ...
It's the SMALL stuff that gets you it will!!

Good talking with you on the phone Sir Turocy !
Surprised you answered. !!!

[Deleted]

Sounds like you need new plug wires! and get COPPER wire wires . No worries folks, if it is a true 42 script the drivers seat is wrong for my 12/44 as the 42 has the small gas cap

Lee

[Deleted]

GM...statically time with a multi meter? Spill the beans! I wanna know!!

By the way...I got her to backfire through the carb today. I'll take that as her having some life in her. So right now I'm playing with timing. Also, I'm not entirely convinced that a valve or two isn't stuck open. I might be pulling the cover off when I play next.

Until then, let's get back to static timing and the multi meter, from our new resident electrical expert!