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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 15:10:39 GMT -5
OK, laddies....time to take the heat away from my fashion sense and redirect everyone towards a jeep...for awhile. I was board this afternoon, so I thought I would investigate the starting issues of my '44MB. (its the one I have the blog about. HG, have you seen it?) Ever since I finished rebuilding the jeep, the starter has never been able to start the engine. I have always had to use the hand crank, and that fires it up very QUICKLY and EASILY! It is a 6 volt system. 6 volt starter. I did not rebuild it. I did disassemble and clean it, though. I replaced the Bendix gear (10 teeth) with a new one from Ron Fitzpatrick. If memory serves me correctly, I double and triple checked the flywheel: 97 teeth. The starter will engage the flywheel, but does not spin it very fast. The battery is old! It is the old one from my GPW, so its about 7 years old and ALWAYS on a battery charger when I think about running this step child jeep. The starter will spin the flywheel, but very reluctantly and it sounds HIDEOUS! Curious about everyone's thoughts.  (the video may not be live immediately. Youtube says it will take 24 minutes and I want to go swat some golf balls!) |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 16:48:17 GMT -5
A educated guess...  , Sounds like the internal bushings inside the starter motor are worn out. When that happens, it allows the armature to come in contact and rub with the field pole shoes on the inside of the case. Also, sounds like hell!! Bo, I could very well be wrong, like I said, its just a guess,  but here's my thoughts as to why.... Keep in mind, there is not much running clearance between the armature and the field poles. Also, the field poles are a pair of strong electric magnets, one of which is pushing on the armature and one of which is pulling on the armature, so if there is any excess wear in the bushings, the armature will shift and drag on the poles. It doesn't take much internal drag, plus the makings of a internal short, to slow the motor down and cause excess draw and voltage drop on the battery. With a 6v system. it doesn't take much of a voltage drop to prevent the coil from producing a hot spark. That's why the engine will fire right up the handcrank and not with the starter, even though your not spinning it hardly at all with the crank. My Dad had the same symptoms as yours with his 2A a little while back. He didn't believe me, until I took the starter apart and showed him the telltale marks on the side of the armature where it was rubbing. He let his go too long, and he almost trashed the armature. Luckily, I was able to find the short and save it. I believe it his starter in the picture here:There should be a stamped metal plate inside the starter where the main housing separates from the nose piece, that uses a standard 1/2" x5/8" x 1/2" (0.500 x 0.675 x 0.500) 5/8" x 3/4" x 1/2" (0.625 x 0.750 x 0.500) bushing. The communtator end uses a oddball bushing, 0.512" X 0.675" x .500" bushing if I can recall correctly. 0.637 x 0.750 x 0.500 Somebody please correct me on the bushing sizes if I'm wrong. I was. Its only if you go to a Chinese laundry, then "Two Wongs make it wright."  Hope this helps!! If not, I apologize, but I'm not the one wearing knickers!!   Edit: Still not wearing Knickers! Gary, the professional smart-ass and spark chaser!! |
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Post by Haines Garage on May 22, 2014 17:55:23 GMT -5
Oh oh oh oh oh! Tim Allen grunt you know!
Sir Gary Has blasted on the scene !!!!
I am more than impressed !
I knew there was something about that guy!
I was going to say the same thing..... Total. BS.
Actually I was going to say that jeep just needs too much work and you need to sell it! Keep the GPW engine!
But that drops the value of what you have significantly .
And I mean significantly!!!!
Say when........
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 18:24:35 GMT -5
Moose55, I would say the bushings as well, and do not forget the one in the bellhousing, Very important to relace that one as well. I wear Wranglers if it matters Lee  |
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Post by Haines Garage on May 22, 2014 18:30:35 GMT -5
Moose55, I would say the bushings as well, and do not forget the one in the bellhousing, Very important to relace that one as well. I wear Wranglers if it matters Lee And there you have it!! HAHAHA WRANGLERS!  I have some strecth fit ones...even though I have no ass...worked it off you know! You have to admit Sir Garys post was most insightful! |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 18:58:52 GMT -5
More: commutator should be clean, free of grease, good strong spring pressure against the brushes, and field test showing no shorts or bad segments in the armature. No short or field loss to the case either. Bushings like Lee and Gary said. Clean battery ground to the frame, good ground from the engine to the frame, foot starter also not shorting and losing current. Then, timing not too far advanced and fighting the starter. Last but not least, a good battery that holds a charge. Also, remove golf balls from bell housing!!!!!!!!!!! John |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 20:32:32 GMT -5
More: commutator should be clean, free of grease, good strong spring pressure against the brushes, and field test showing no shorts or bad segments in the armature. No short or field loss to the case either. Bushings like Lee and Gary said. Clean battery ground to the frame, good ground from the engine to the frame, foot starter also not shorting and losing current. Then, timing not too far advanced and fighting the starter. Last but not least, a good battery that holds a charge. Also, remove golf balls from bell housing!!!!!!!!!!! John X2!!! On what John said also! A 6 volt system is good, but all has got to be clean, bright and tight!! X3 on Wranglers! John, Lee, I've a seen high mica issues on generators, has any body had that issue on starters? Bo, you gots to watch them goof balls....they's worse than rats, they gets into everything! |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 21:03:45 GMT -5
"Strech fit Wranglers"!, WTH? , A yard sale purchase? , your so damn skinny they will not live up to their claim .............. Ok it just came to me , your a hipster and they are skinny jeans , LMAO. Lee  |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 21:34:52 GMT -5
This is info is probably not going to help at all, but just in case......  |
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Post by Haines Garage on May 22, 2014 21:37:19 GMT -5
Sir Gary is on FiRE!!!!
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Post by Haines Garage on May 22, 2014 21:41:43 GMT -5
"Strech fit Wranglers"!, WTH? , A yard sale purchase? , your so damn skinny they will not live up to their claim .............. Ok it just came to me , your a hipster and they are skinny jeans , LMAO. Lee Like I said .... I have worked my ass.... Off! And they were a purchase from Wally World.... Who cares about sexy,,,, I'm getting to old for that shit! |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 1:40:31 GMT -5
Bushings...hmmmmmm, I like it! And Fletch said it was all "ball bearings these days." Thanks, Gary. I knew it had to be something relatively simple. I have been through that darn starter quite a few times performing the TM tests on it. When the armature checked out fine and I could not find any shorts elsewhere, my mind kept thinking that the bendix and they flywheel hated each other. I never would've thought out of spec bushings would cause that noise. I like the theory. I'll investigate more this weekend. And yes, HG, the thought of selling that jeep is growing ever stronger. I never drive it. I've got a small punch list that I want to complete to reduce the buyers bargains power. And how the hell do you yahoos keep returning back to the fashion chit chat?! Haha! |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 4:12:29 GMT -5
Ok...here is some fun food for thought...by the way...I was tossing and turning in bed for the first half of the night thinking about this dilemma with torturous anticipation...(might be part of that Willys disease)...
So, not being able to stand it any longer, I went to the garage around 3:30am.
I took apart the starter and was measuring the ID of the bushings. A faint glimmer of a memory skirted through my mind. I went to my spare parts/take out parts box labeled "Electrical" and found the old, worn out bushing that was removed from the pressed steel intermediate plate. I thought I had played with that one a long time ago. In the same bag was the new, unused bushing for the communatator end. I had not used it. Hmmmmm....it's ID measured .639. The used one currently in the starter measures .6375. The OD of the armature/comm end might have been .635 or so.
I think the bushings are fine in the starter.
The OD end with the bendix measured 1/2". I took a 1/2" drill bit and placed it in the bushing in the bell housing. (It just seemed like something HG would have done, so why the hell not?). The bit felt like it had considerable wiggle room in there.
At this point, it seems like the bell housing bushing would be the logical place to start. If it is the only worn out bushing, would it be sufficient enough to make the starter behave in that obscene manner in the video?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 5:38:02 GMT -5
Moose, Yes! Grab the end of the starter and see how much you can shift the armature with it out of the Jeep. I once had a jeep the idiot bolted the engine to the bellhousing with 5/16 inch bolts. It was wearing on the input shaft etc. and the starter was off too. John
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 8:31:27 GMT -5
Opps! I was wayyyy off on the bushing sizes!  I don't know where I came up with 1/2" x 5/8" bushings, know I wasn't drinking. Yours are fine, my sincere apologies!  I now remember, I bought standard 5/8" x 3/4" bushings for Dad's starter. I had to have the communtator bushing I.D. turned out on a lathe an additional 0.012. So 0.625 + 0.012 would be 0.637, same as yours. I redacted my original post, I don't like spreading wrong info. Again, it looks like Sir John is the right track!!!! My Wrangler Cowboy-cut and pearl snap shirt mojo must be off....... |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 11:03:37 GMT -5
Be careful...HG might ask for a picture of that outfit. If he does, you should oblige. As for the 1/2" x 5/8" bushing...that is (according to my manuals) the size needed for the bell housing. So, in NO way, am I or will I cast a "shame on you" finger in your general direction. You are tops in my book. It's info like that that NEVER remains between my ears. I talked to Scott this morning...he wanted to make absolutely sure that the armature checked out fine. I did all of the TM checks on it (short of putting it on a growler) and no shorts appeared. Hopefully it will be a worn out bell housing bushing. I should know by the end of the weekend. Oh...and per Oilleaker, I did slide the end of the armature into the bell bushing, and it was a sloppy fit. Alright, boys...cowboy up! Sh!t, my 10 gallon hat leaked oil on my red/white table cloth patterned shirt. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 11:18:46 GMT -5
Oh...by the way...I swung by Lowes this morning on a hunch. They have in stock a bronze bushing 1/2"x5/8"x1 1/8". I just checked it with the tip of the armature. It's a snug fit! I just need to cut the length down to size. I'm going to remove the original from the bell first, though, and compare new with old.
$2.63 plus tax.
Fingers crossed!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 15:27:11 GMT -5
Soooooo.....I just switched out the bushing and put the jeep back together. I thought about being like HG and take a lot of pics and give you guys a "what for", but ultimately, I would've plagiarized. Here is what I did: Bell housing bushing replacementAll in all, it was a simple, straight forward easy repair. After it was said and done, I hooked up my 7+ year old battery and gave her a whirl (with the ignition off. I'm not allowed to start jeeps in the garage. Haha!). The engine definitely spun faster. Sounded a bit better, too. I didn't think it was great, so I stepped over to the GPW and pressed the foot starter. Both starters sound very much alike. I'll charge the battery tonite and maybe try to crank the MB to life tomorrow. |
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Post by Haines Garage on May 23, 2014 20:14:35 GMT -5
You should take pics and post what you do Sir Moosester,
Also add the. Blog you created here on the links to the Flat Fender World. I enjoyed reading it many many times!
Still doesn't get you off the hook though...
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Post by Haines Garage on May 23, 2014 20:26:44 GMT -5
Oh...one more thing...stop calling me during the workday with your BS and Jeep Questions! I have a job to do you know!!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 20:51:46 GMT -5
Bo, I'm glad it was a easy fix!! I must've been thinking about the bell housing bushing in my original post, that's what I get for using my memory, instead of my notes!!! As for the pearl snap outfit, here you go....it's just standard working man wear...... Although, I have a camo pearl snap shirt...it does triple duty. You can wear it when you take your lady out dancing on Friday, at deer camp on Saturday and for Sunday meeting and still look good! Probably wouldn't want to do it in the same weekend without washing it.... What you can't see are the Wrangler jeans, and Redwing boots. What you can see is the unshaven, windburned face. That is what happens when you drive around all morning with the windshield down, lol!  Lee ain't gonna know what to think with that herd of Chebbies behind me!! Hehehe! Oh...one more thing...stop calling me during the workday with your BS and Jeep Questions! I have a job to do you know!!!! He loves it and don't want to admit it!! Lol! |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 10:10:35 GMT -5
Here is the old bell housing bushing that I removed...  The new bushing was somewhere between .495 and .5...definitely a snugger fit on the armature shaft. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2014 10:14:01 GMT -5
And since the repair lasted about 30 minutes (most of the time spent removing the voltage regular and fender and then bolting them back in place)...I had lots of time to go do this...  (That's mainly for gmcjr's enjoyment, but I'm sure ALL will laugh and shake your head) |
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Post by Haines Garage on May 24, 2014 10:51:06 GMT -5
NO YOU DID NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ??!!!!!!!! |
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Post by GMCJR AS A GUEST on May 24, 2014 11:20:28 GMT -5
BO! YOUR STANDING SIDEWAYS!!
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, 
but here's my thoughts as to why....
I have some strecth fit ones...even though I have no ass...worked it off you know! 
I don't know where I came up with 1/2" x 5/8" bushings, know I wasn't drinking. Yours are fine, my sincere apologies! 
