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Post by athawk11 on Apr 2, 2014 18:26:23 GMT -5
Okay Lee, Got it! I need to pay attention more when I'm messing with this issue. I've just never had a problem like this before. Of course, I've only messed with one other engine, so my experience isn't all that.
I did pull the cap and the pressure relief stuff tonight when I got home. I blew air into the relief hole in an attempt to clean the seat. I don't know that it was dirty, but it was worth the effort anyway. I haven't tried to pressurize it yet. Running to the vet. Jack, my black Lab has an infected tooth. Poor old guy.
I'll try one more time to pressure it up. I'm not hopeful. Either way, I think I'm pulling the pan. New gaskets arrive tomorrow!
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 18:57:39 GMT -5
The pivot where the cotter pin goes through is submerged in the oil of your pan. It is never supposed to be out of the oil thus no seal in there where it pivots. I asked about this wondering why it doesn't have a seal there. Keep looking, when you find it, you will think gee that was easy. Knowledge is expensive! I learned this over and over. LOL, John
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Post by athawk11 on Apr 4, 2014 9:53:35 GMT -5
Well, I broke it.
Cleaned the pressure relief and all internals on my pump. I re-installed into the block. I cranked the motor. Clink, Clink, Clink!
What the heck was that? Distributor...not spinning. This isn't good. Pulled the pump. Three broken teeth. Heart sinks. Frustration builds. A realization takes over. I calm down. I study my mistake.
I installed the circular cam up-side-down when I put the pump back together. Once tightened to the block the cam pushed tight against the oil pump cap. Pump Gear won't turn. Teeth break. There is a taper on this pump cam. It must go to the up side of the pump.
Positives...
-I was able to buy a NOS replacement gear for the pump. $10.00.
-The cam looks okay. A couple small chips in the teeth.
-Air pressure through the oil feed back to the pick up...girgling oil. Passage is clear. Float is in the oil.
-Another learning experience.
I have been blessed and lucky up until this pressure thing. This set back will be overcome.
Tim
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Post by Ryan_M on Apr 4, 2014 14:29:06 GMT -5
I've encountered so many of these Jeep-related problems that nearly drove me crazy. Once a solution is found and the world is right again I usually come to the conclusion that it was probably a good overall situation simply because of the knowledge I gained. Looking back, some of those problems would now be laughable. And without a doubt there will be many more of these challenges. I'm glad you learned from this one and even more pleased that you shared it with the rest of us. I have yet to disassemble an oil pump but when I inevitably do I'll make sure the orientation of that cam is correct.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 17:32:14 GMT -5
Chin up. Keep going ahead. Thanks for the sharing of mistakes. God knows I've done some good ones. Make sure the pump turns freely with the cap tightened on it. There have been some melling pumps with the wrong gasket installed that gall on the end plate and lock up when tightened into the block!!!!!!!!!!! Same results you just had. If you get ready to beat on things, walk away for a while and have a beer, or sleep on it. You reach a point when you are mad that it does no good to continue. Come back to it with a clear head and you are over the tantrum. Yep, I do have one quality though, I beat and break stuff I want thrown in the garbage anyway. That way I don't wreck valuable stuff!  John |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 21:02:55 GMT -5
Hey I had a beer tonite, a Coors Lite  Lee |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 4, 2014 22:03:12 GMT -5
Hey I had a beer tonite, a Coors Lite Lee My brand of choice used to be Warsteiner. But since my visit last year to Colorado Rockies, I changed to the Colorado Kool Aid. Coors was a German! |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 4, 2014 22:06:35 GMT -5
Sir Hawkridge... I wish we lived closer. I remember your garage..
We could kill it there..no doubt.
You will get it. And when you do, will teach a whole bunch of us something!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 22:13:25 GMT -5
Hey I had a beer tonite, a Coors Lite Lee My brand of choice used to be Warsteiner. But since my visit last year to Colorado Rockies, I changed to the Colorado Kool Aid. Coors was a German! The koolaid works for me, Not a big beer guy but one from time to time is fine, Leinenkugel works as well! Lee  |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 4, 2014 22:33:37 GMT -5
Why do all threads here turn to beer?
I have to say...the Hawk and I put a few down..When you go to Colorado...Maybe he will take you to the Famous Pizza Place.
Ok no more pirating..the man needs some help, and encouragement here.
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Post by athawk11 on Apr 8, 2014 12:30:07 GMT -5
It's kind of fun watching these threads go sideways. If Lee decides to stop in Arvada on his way to the FCT, I will surely take him to Golden, home of Coors, and to Woody's Wood Fired Pizza for the 'all you can eat' buffet.
Back to the task...
I got my new pump gear last night. I put the pump back together, re-indexed the thing (for the gaazillionth time) and re-installed it. I was careful to install the cam in the right direction. Turned the engine by hand after tightening the pump to the block. Everything turns smooth. (Thankfully)
Wife started to whine. Had to stop and go inside.
So, I'm back to where I was a week ago. I will try to pressurize the system again tonight. I haven't pulled the pan yet, because the last time I blew air throught the channel, I could hear oil gurgling. At least I now know the float is in the oil and the pick up is clear.
Tim
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2014 19:05:58 GMT -5
Wife whined, was she in 1st gear or third? In or out of 4 wheel drive? Straight cut wives do have a whine to them normally!  |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 8, 2014 20:43:51 GMT -5
Wife whined, was she in 1st gear or third? In or out of 4 wheel drive? Straight cut wives do have a whine to them normally! I passed on that one.. I have met Said Fair Lady..Sir Hawkridge is A KJRT. I cannot envision her whining..but OK..... |
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Post by athawk11 on Apr 9, 2014 10:02:45 GMT -5
Rachel really doesn't whine. She asks when I'm coming back in. That usually tells me what I need to do. UPDATE>>> -Pumped in oil. -Turned engine. -Blip of oil pressure. Then none. -Pulled pan. -Oil float is spotless and functioning as it should. -Oil float pick up passage is clear. -Pick up tube was filed flat at install, has gasket with sealer and appears to be a solid install. -Both galley plugs by center bearing race are installed. -Front oil galley plug was installed prior to front plate installation. Thread sealer added. -Oil squirter installed. (I never pulled this. I just made sure passage was clear with compressed air.) - A bit dazed and confused. -Compressed air through oil canister side tube gives me air through the oil pick up tube and also a fair amount of air that sounds like it's coming from the timing cover area. It also tended to push oil out the bearing feeds, causing a face full of dripping oil. I am pushing 80 psi into the channel, but oil gauge only reads 10 psi while doing this. I didn't try plugging up the pick up tube, then adding air to see what oil gauge pressure would be. I didn't think of trying this until this morning. Is this a good plan of action?  The volume of air at the front of the engine is concerning. Maybe it's not as much as it sounds. It should only be the squirter...right? Help. Any thoughts and insights would be much appreciated. Tim |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 9, 2014 13:31:03 GMT -5
Here is what I think you should do.
Buy a NOS oil pump
When installed, pack it with Vaseline
Fire that joker up....
That's my vote.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 18:58:14 GMT -5
Holy smokes, this thing is being a butt. 80 psi in and 10 on the gauge means allot of pressure is going elsewhere. I'd re-prime, and with spark plugs out, detach the oil line going to the filter up top and spin the engine and watch the end of the hose. See if it is pumping, and your gauge is fooling with you. You did say other mechanical gauges show nothing also right? If it pumps oil, but doesn't fill the entire manifold and galleries, it won't build pressure. Crank has around .004 end float? Did the plastigage show about .002 on the rods and mains while assembling? The reason I'm asking is that too much clearance, wrong bearings, is another big leak of your oil. If it is pumping oil out the hose, then you still have a suspect leak of the system somehow. If it's not pumping oil steady, then the pump is screwed. You verified the rest. The roll pin that holds the gear on the pump shaft is not sheared? In other words the shaft doesn't turn but the gear does. Distributor turning would mean it's not sheared. This is all that's left in my mind for you to check. John
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 9, 2014 19:20:33 GMT -5
Holy smokes, this thing is being a butt. 80 psi in and 10 on the gauge means allot of pressure is going elsewhere. I'd re-prime, and with spark plugs out, detach the oil line going to the filter up top and spin the engine and watch the end of the hose. See if it is pumping, and your gauge is fooling with you. You did say other mechanical gauges show nothing also right? If it pumps oil, but doesn't fill the entire manifold and galleries, it won't build pressure. Crank has around .004 end float? Did the plastigage show about .002 on the rods and mains while assembling? The reason I'm asking is that too much clearance, wrong bearings, is another big leak of your oil. If it is pumping oil out the hose, then you still have a suspect leak of the system somehow. If it's not pumping oil steady, then the pump is screwed. You verified the rest. The roll pin that holds the gear on the pump shaft is not sheared? In other words the shaft doesn't turn but the gear does. Distributor turning would mean it's not sheared. This is all that's left in my mind for you to check. John This man knows what he is talking about...no doubt in my mind |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 10, 2014 17:15:39 GMT -5
Here is what I think you should do. Buy a NOS oil pump When installed, pack it with Vaseline Fire that joker up.... That's my vote. You're not going with my vote are you... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 19:05:44 GMT -5
Personally I would fire it up for 10 seconds and see what happens  Lee |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 10, 2014 19:23:40 GMT -5
Personally I would fire it up for 10 seconds and see what happens Lee That is what I sm saying.. But, I still say new oil pump. I feel the same way about rebuilding oil pumps, and water pumps ad all of you feel about rebuilding brake cylinders.. My gut tells me this is the problem. Call it a disturbance in the Force. If I am wrong..feel free to spank me publicly.. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 7:27:51 GMT -5
If you see oil continuously coming out of the feed to the oil filter, yes, you could fire it up. If not, you risk toasting the rod and main bearings. On a new engine, that is critical. Now, I have a MGTD that never has more than 20 lbs of oil pressure going down the road. I've driven it to Yellowstone, Trail Ridge in Colorado, and all around for years with that pressure. I thought it was too low. When I read the manual under oil pressure, this is what I get from the limeys------------oil Pressure Spec-----------"Any Appreciable Amount" ! Figure that one out.
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Post by athawk11 on Apr 15, 2014 11:09:27 GMT -5
Well, no smoking gun after removing the pan. Float is spotless. The pick up is tight and flawless. The passages are clear. I've decided to try HG's suggestion. Maybe the starter isn't turning fast enough to pressure it all up. Again, I do get an initial rise in pressure when I first crank the thing.
It will be a while before I try this. I'll need to plumb the carb and get some basic electrical hooked up first. In the mean time, I'm going to pull the pump off my extra engine and get it cleaned up. If the existing pump won't pressure it up, this pump will be my back up plan.
Currently, I've changed my focus to other tasks.
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 19:00:11 GMT -5
Tim, you aren't the only one being beat on. I'm now 2 for 2 on cracked blocks.  Sure looked like a good one until the machine shop showed me my very hard to see cracks running into two valve seats! 3 of 3 is at the shop awaiting to see if it passes. I'll have some scrap iron to sell for the gas it took to go get # 2. The 200 bucks for it was a waste. I will win this battle or die trying though! John |
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Post by Haines Garage on Apr 15, 2014 19:15:22 GMT -5
Tim, you aren't the only one being beat on. I'm now 2 for 2 on cracked blocks. Sure looked like a good one until the machine shop showed me my very hard to see cracks running into two valve seats! 3 of 3 is at the shop awaiting to see if it passes. I'll have some scrap iron to sell for the gas it took to go get # 2. The 200 bucks for it was a waste. I will win this battle or die trying though! John YOU CAN"T SEE THEM WITH THE NAKED EYE!!!!! Especially not my aging ones! Sir Hawk.....Fire that Muther Up! Let the chips fall where they may. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 7:09:55 GMT -5
Tim, Kilroy over at WillymJeeps.com is having the same pressure issues as you. I got to wondering, are you filling the oil filter canister with oil before you start cranking with the starter to get pressure? Another thing to do. John
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John
Sure looked like a good one until the machine shop showed me my very hard to see cracks running into two valve seats! 3 of 3 is at the shop awaiting to see if it passes. I'll have some scrap iron to sell for the gas it took to go get # 2. The 200 bucks for it was a waste. I will win this battle or die trying though!