No Pressure

[athawk11]

Gents, I have no Oil Pressure on a fresh reassembly. In another thread, Oilleaker offers some very important steps to take when prepping an engine like this for a start up...




"Now, moving on, your oil pressure absence is serious. You need to prime the system before you go any farther. Pull the oil pump, spin it in a can of fresh oil and expel any air. Re-install it. Then remove the oil feed line that runs from the block behind the fuel pump up at the connection going into the filter. Take a hand pump oil can and pump a full can back down the hose. This fills the side gallery and back down to the oil pump. You should have oil pressure now when you spin the engine over with the plugs out. Report back. I leave no knights on the battle field. Jeep brothers you know! John"


When I tried to fill it with oil, then install it, some oil ran out when I put the pump in the right angle to install it on the block. I had to clean it off and put on a new gasket. This installation is tricky. You're filled with oil. You have a fresh gasket and sealer on the surface. If that's not enough, you need to index the oil pump gears so your timing will be right.

I also filled the side oil galleys through the oil filter canister feed line as described above. I hooked up the oil pressure gauge. I removed the spark plugs. I hooked up the starter and turned the engine. It won't pressurize. I pumped more oil through the canister line and tried again. Still No Pressure.

I tested and tried two different oil gauges.  Both appear to work.  I replaced the oil gauge lines.  They are clear.


I removed the cap on the oil pump to find it completely empty. It's pumping, but not refilling. I packed it with assembly lube, then reinstalled the cap. I re-filled oil throught the canister feed line then turned the engine again. Still no pressure.

Here are my theories... My oil pick up is stuck up and out of the oil. The oil pump gasket is covering an oil delivery hole, or the hole is clogged with something.

On assembly, I cleaned and added a fresh gasket to the oil pick up assembly. I also replaced a nail, on the oil pivot tube, with a cotter pin. I installed the oil pan with the engine up-side-down. Could my cotter pin replacement be caught on something and not allowing the pick-up to drop into the oil??

There you have it. Are these theories nonsense? Are there additional things I should check? Oh, I did put the oil galley plug back in when I cleaned the engine internals.

Help me.

Tim

[Deleted]

You are priming the system correctly. I doubt the gasket supplied in the kit for the block to pump surface is wrong. Stock oil filter, not a spin on? Spray nozzle up front on? Relief valve seated in oil pump with good spring? At center main, are the two gallery plugs in, one with screwdriver slot, one with square head? This is inside the block. Oil float pivot is supposed to be submerged in oil, so that should not be a issue. Gasket between oil float and block? Not much else to leak except by the bearings and cam plug. Did you assemble the engine or did the machine shop? We'll figure it out, just don't start the engine until you verify oil pressure. John

[Deleted]

X2 on the oil spray nozzle and the galley plugs, I do not run the nozzle, just plug the hole, often these plugs are forgotten, do not ask me how I know .

Lee

[Deleted]

Scratch the nozzle! I seen it in your photo's, one other thing came to mind, where the pickup screen mounts to the block the surface of the flange on the screen base often gets distorted from over tightening, flatten it with a flat file, may be leaking air!

Lee

[Deleted]

I'm assuming both the gallery plugs on each end are in also. If they weren't or the cam plug wasn't in the oil would be in a pool on the floor somewhere. now you know where my handle is coming from--------Oilleaker! Ha! John

[athawk11]

A few things to keep this going.

-Internal oil galley plugs were definately put back in.
-I did have to flatten the pick up tube surface. It was pretty badly distorted, but is fixed.
-I did install a new gasket with seal on the pick up tube.

Again, a weird thing... Oil pump was originally filled with oil on installation. When I pulled the cap, it was void of oil. It must have been pumped out. This is when I packed it with assembly lube. So...there was oil in the pump, then after attempting to pressure up the system, it was gone, and no more entered the pump. This leads me to believe the oil float is not floating on the oil, or somthing is blocking oil from getting back into the pump.

I'm rebuilding the carb today, so I haven't messed with this issue. I wanted to get feedback from the group. Plus I reordered more oil pan gaskets in anticipation of having to pull the pan. I really don't want to pull the pan.

Tim

[Deleted]

The oil float is hard to plug, including the screen. I think the oil pump to block gasket from the kit only goes on one way. so the holes in it should be right. No oil in the pump means to me it has lost prime. Is the pan full to the mark on the stick?. I'd next try to back pump to the oil pump right at the oil pressure sender tap in the block. Maybe your oil can sent it else where. You could also re-expel air from the pump in the can. Try again. Better than pulling that pan for sure. John

[athawk11]

Can anyone give me an estimate on how much oil the internal passages hold? Maybe I'm not pumping enough in to fill them enough to keep a prime.

I pulled the cap off the oil pump again today. All the assembly lube I pushed in to it, has all been pumped out.

Tim

[Deleted]

Remove the line for the oil filter at the block and plug the block, then see if you get pressure.

LEE

[Haines Garage]

Mar 30, 2014 20:40:46 GMT -5 @lee said:

Remove the line for the oil filter at the block and plug the block, then see if you get pressure.

LEE

That is a great piece of advice.
Would you be so kind as to elaborate why.

[Deleted]

Mar 30, 2014 20:56:56 GMT -5 Haines Garage said:

Mar 30, 2014 20:40:46 GMT -5 @lee said:

Remove the line for the oil filter at the block and plug the block, then see if you get pressure.

LEE

That is a great piece of advice.
Would you be so kind as to elaborate why.

Well the (do not ask my opinion of them)bypass oil filter has an orifice in it to maintain oil pressure in the engine, if this is not in place, you will not have any oil pressure, not to say this is the problem, but by unhooking it and plugging the feed to it in the oil galley, you are removing it from the maybe list.

Lee

[Deleted]

Tim, my oil can holds about a cup of oil. I've primed the pump in the container of oil, installed it, and then pumped oil into the gallery at the sender until the oil pump can is empty. When I remove the tip of the oil can, oil tries to come back out and I plug the gallery. I've actually found when I removed the oil filter canister lid, that the pump oil can was sending oil up to it!!!!!!! The stand pipe inside the oil filter canister has a hole in the side of it. .070 small. This hole provides back pressure to the gallery. I have no idea how someone could drill it out. The oil in the canister has to go through the filter, through that hole and drain down to the timing front cover. On WW2 chain drive engines, this draining of oil would lube the timing chain. On Later engines with the gear drive, the spray nozzle does it. Re-prime and try again. I think you covered all the other possibilities. John

[athawk11]

Okay fellas, thanks for the ideas and information. I'm begining to think I didn't pump enough in. As a matter of fact, when I pumped (gravity fed) the oil in, I would then 'blow on the filler tube and I could hear air. I put oil in the filter housing, but I don't think I filled it. If the oil level in the filter is not above that small orifice in the center tube, would I hear air being pushed out through it when I blow on the filler tube? I was hearing air. I just don't know where it was coming from.

Now, no nasty remarks about me blowing!!!

Tim

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2014 14:19:55 GMT -5 athawk11 said:

Now, no nasty remarks about me blowing!!!

Tim

Why Tim, who here in the garage would think to do something like that! ,..........


Lee

[Deleted]

Tim, Lee and I wouldn't dare think of doing that! John

[Deleted]

Lee, I gotta know, if one blows on a hose as hard as he can, which orifice will leak air first? . John

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2014 20:07:53 GMT -5 @oilleaker1 said:

Lee, I gotta know, if one blows on a hose as hard as he can, which orifice will leak air first? . John

Naturally it will take the path of least resistance! , BUT, If the engine is primed, it will leak oil before air, more of a "Shart" than an air leak, perhaps he should remove the
drain hose from the front cover and try sucking on it, ya'know, draw the oil through the engine like a straw, that is a whole different line of physics , LOL.

Lee

[Haines Garage]

Mar 31, 2014 19:45:21 GMT -5 @lee said:

Mar 31, 2014 14:19:55 GMT -5 athawk11 said:

Now, no nasty remarks about me blowing!!!

Tim

Why Tim, who here in the garage would think to do something like that! ,..........


Lee

No but i would.....Ha Ha Ha

I am pissing myself!!!!




Just for you Sir Hawkridge!

[athawk11]

See? I knew you guys couldn't resist.

Back to the issue... I filled the canister to the rim. Forced about 2 cups of oil through the canister tube. Turned the engine and...nothing. Not even a blip.

I pulled the oil pump. It appears to me that the assembly lube was clogging entry of oil into the pump. I cleaned out the lube. Blew the oil ports with compressed air. With the pump off, I added oil through the canister tube. Oil started running out the engine block at the oil pump mounting area. Okay. Thumbs up. Now I'm certain I am pushing oil into the pump. I reinstalled the oil pump. I forced oil into the system. I turned the engine, and...nothing. I primed it again. I turned it over, and... I got a blip of pressure, then it dropped back down to nothing.

I came inside. Pouted. Then started this post .

Bottom line, I don't think the pick up is picking up. The blip of pressure was probably the pump pushing the initial oil that I forced into the pump.

What do you guys think?

Tim

[Deleted]

"I don't think the pick up is picking up."

That's what I think. BW

[Deleted]

If you need a oil float, I have several. I'll give you one. Send me your address and it's on the way my friend. I've never had one fight this long. Simply nuts! If you haven't done this, pull the hex cap on the oil pump and verify that a piece of junk hasn't lodged between the relief valve and seat on the relief assembly and that it is seating. You will never have oil pressure if this is so. Ask me how I know that one! I had intermittent oil pressure in another car of mine and it had a small segment of cotter pin sitting in the seat area floating around. John

[Deleted]

It's a simple system, but when it doesn't work, it can be REALLY frustrating. A bit over a year ago when I was working on my MB, I had oil pressure and then while goofing with my timing (I pulled the dizzy and oil pump and reset them correctly) I lost all pressure. It was a classic WTF moment when I restarted the jeep and saw 0 on a gauge that routinely hit 40 lbs.

I must have removed the pump three or four times, packed it with petroleum jelly, tested it on my bench, rebuilt it, used a second spare pump, blah, blah, blah. Still had zero pressure.

In the end, I dropped the pan, removed the pick up float and cleaned it out...although there was nothing obstructing it.

I scraped off the pickup gasket, cleaned, re cleaned, and triple cleaned the surface before putting on a new gasket.

Bolted everything back in place. Re packed the oil pump with vasoline and hand cranked the engine a bit. Then I got brave and started the jeep up.

40 lbs of pressure at idle.

Hopefully yours is just a teeny tiny air leak at the pick up.

To bench test my pump, I think squirted as much oil as I could into the pump, used my thumb to plug one of the holes and then spun the gear. Oil easily pushed through. I'd post the link on my blog to check it out, but HG is already grumpy.

[Deleted]

Remove the oil pump, remove the relief valve, look for a piece of crap stuck in the plunger, or a broken spring, while the pump is off, be creative, and pull a vacuum on the port from the pickup float, an oil suction gun, toob, the greasegun looking thing would work, see if you can pull oil through the port.

Try a different pump?

Lee

[athawk11]

John (OL), that's a generous offer. Thank you. Let me open this up before you go through the trouble of sending one.

Lee, I did pop out the relief valve spring and poppet. I don't think there was any crud on the poppet seat, but I will check that again. Pulling oil through the port sounds like a good idea. I'm beginning to understand how the oil flows. When I had the pump off the last time, I used compressed air into the oil supply holes. From the oil filter to the pump outlet hole, I could hear air up at the oil canister. From the oil pump pick up hole to the pick up tube and float, I didn't seem to get air to push through to the oil pick up tube, but I don't know if I was 'kicking in' the pressure relief poppet. If not, I think I have a clog. I cleaned the pick up tube and float. I'm wondering if I did something stupid...like leave a paper towl piece in the pick up tube.

Also, I replaced the cotter pin that holds the float to the supply tube. This joint swivels to allow the float to rise and fall with the oil level. This joint didn't seem to fit very tight. Is there a built in assumption that you will lose pressure at this joint?

Tim


Edit::::: Actually, I think I need to amend this. If memory serves, ( and this is even a reach) the air was being dispelled out the large oil pump hole that the oil pump fits into, when I blew air to the intake side. Maybe. Damn! I can't remember. But if this is the case, then that passage would be clear. Right? But shouldn't I hear some oil girgling if the float is down in the oil?

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2014 10:06:11 GMT -5 athawk11 said:

Edit::::: Actually, I think I need to amend this. If memory serves, ( and this is even a reach) the air was being dispelled out the large oil pump hole that the oil pump fits into, when I blew air to the intake side. Maybe. Damn! I can't remember. But if this is the case, then that passage would be clear. Right? But shouldn't I hear some oil girgling if the float is down in the oil?

Ok, The oil filter has absolutely nothing to do with your problem, it is a bypass type filter, it's oil is supplied via the oil galley of the engine. On a full flow filter, typical of a modern auto engine, the oil is sucked out of the pan by the pump then forced through the oil filter and then sent to the oil galley to supply oil to the bearings ect.

Now your Issue, If you blow air through the pickup passage from the oilpump (pump removed blowing back to the pickup) it should gurgle, if not you have a serious leak, then you need to remove the pan, remove the screen from the pickup float and hold a finger over the tube, and then blow air back through the pickup passage and see where it leaks, for whatever reason you are loosing the vaccume between the pump and the pickup.

Lee