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Post by athawk11 on Jan 14, 2014 0:07:53 GMT -5
I need some advice from the engine guys here. My engine is on the stand. The engine is ice cold. I did a leak down test on the cylinders. There is no indication of a cracked block or head seal problem. The test showed that the valves seat and seal nicely, but the rings leak more than they should. I haven't pulled the head yet. From under neath, the pistons and cylinder walls look fresh and new.
I want to hone the cylinders and replace the rings. Can I expect success?
Tim
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 14, 2014 0:23:16 GMT -5
Sir Hawkridge...Very Interesting Topic.
I will ask you this, when you have time..Please explain..The Leak Down Test.
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Post by athawk11 on Jan 14, 2014 8:54:56 GMT -5
You bet.
A leak down tester tool uses compressed air to test the condition of the cylinders. It works just the opposite of a compression test, but you can do it without the starter installed.
The tool connects to the spark plug port. The compressed air is forced into the cylinder. The gauge will show leak pecentages. Where the air is exiting tells you what it wrong with each cylinder.
If the air leaks into the oil jacket, bad rings. If it leaks through the exhaust, bad exhaust valve. If it leaks through the carb throttle, bad intake valves. If it leaks through the radiator, or into another cylinder, possible cracked block or bad head seal.
In my case, I have the oil pan off. The air can be heard and felt coming through the bottom of the pistons on all four cylinders. The condition, or air leakage is consistently bad on all four cylinders. About 60 to 80 percent loss. If I was to do a compression test, I believe the compression test would be down in the 30 to 40 percentile.
My understanding is all cylinders will leak a bit of air, but you only want to see about 10 pecent or less.
No wonder the engine felt under powered.
Tim
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 14, 2014 10:57:42 GMT -5
That is s perfect explanation.
Thanks...
Now my Opinion......Opinion!
Tear that engine down to s bare block.
Take it to s machine shop.
Have it hot tanked and Magnifluxed..
Bring your Crankshaft and Camshaft with you to be checked as well.
Here is why I say this.
In my engine search, I have had 6 different blocks.
2 "Ran" 1 was a " Fresh Rebuild" with 2000 miles on it.
All had cracks...The Fresh Rebuild was the biggest offender.
I wound up with 2 That were repairable
4 went to the scrap yard.
Thoughts also...
If the Rings are worn
Would not the other mechanicals be as well?
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Post by athawk11 on Jan 14, 2014 11:35:23 GMT -5
HG said..."
Thoughts also...
If the Rings are worn
Would not the other mechanicals be as well?"
Tim says...
Excellent point! But here is the confusing part. Someone has been in this engine. And fairly recently. The crankshaft journals look freshly polished. I haven't pulled all the bearing caps, but the ones I have, show bearings in new condition. From my limited knowledge, the cam lobes look to be in perfect condition.
The cylinders are not original, and from the underside, look brand new. They still have that bright and shiny look.
I haven't pulled the head, and was hoping I wouldn't have to, because there doesn't appear to be leaks. But, I did remove the nuts when I pulled the cross over tube and the oil bracket. They all came off with ease.
The valves don't leak at all, but I did need to adjust them. Valve lifters are flat as pancakes.
The rear main seal is a newer, thus the CRAPPY rubber Victor. It clearly went bad, and almost immediately. This is the only area on the crank that is burned, but not damaged, or groved.
Again, I am getting every indication that this engine was rebuilt recently. Could the rings have been mismatched to the cylinder bore and pistons? Could they have been installed upside down?
I don't know, but I do know that I need to pull the head to see what's happening on the top side. Oh well, so much for my hopes of cleaning, painting, and sealing this engine.
Tim
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 13:59:14 GMT -5
Tim. If you look somewhere on here there is a thread on the rings breaking on someone's engine. I just read it last night. Might be here or 2a page. Lee talked on it if that helps.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 20:42:06 GMT -5
Tim,,, if it were mine I would pull the head and see what you have, you said it was a turd when it ran, someone may have re-ringed it on out of spec cylinders, may need a bore job. I am pretty sure you want it to run correctly, so dive in  Lee  |
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 14, 2014 20:43:49 GMT -5
This discussion is going to get interesting...I Just Know it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 17:32:24 GMT -5
Tim,,, if it were mine I would pull the head and see what you have, you said it was a turd when it ran, someone may have re-ringed it on out of spec cylinders, may need a bore job. I am pretty sure you want it to run correctly, so dive in Lee I folow this site and mr. lee is a meckanic . I am sur he is doing it a long tim I have to agre as a new jeep of age the originnal ownr might hav redid the motor one thing i did cee anoter site was this rebuit engine i woundnt do it this way www.thecj2apage.com/forums/blue-gets-a-transplant_topic27567.html I am sur mr. lee wil help you wit a idea. John |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 19:56:51 GMT -5
'OLE LEE.... YEP HE IS A FULL TIME MECKANIC ALRIGHT AND A DA$N GOOD ONE AT THAT..I EVEN HAVE RANG HIS BELL ON SOME ENGINE PROBLEMS
AND VALUED HIS NOBLE ADVICE....WHAT HE TELLS YOU YOU CAN TAKE STOCK OUT AND IT IS WORTH EVERY PENNY....
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 16, 2014 21:58:22 GMT -5
Sir Hawkridge...Did the motor you are speaking of run...As in you actually heard it yourself, before you took it out of Whitey?
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Post by athawk11 on Jan 17, 2014 10:29:08 GMT -5
Okay, per Lee, I did pull the head. I was suprised at how easy it came off...like a greased pig! Literally had it off in 10 minutes. Gasket is fresh with no failure. Only one small leak out of a center stud. (Stud came out with the nut) cylinders look good, but I need to get, or borrow a bore measuring tool. Pistons are .060 over. I posted a thread on the 2A because of the amount of folks that may have a .060 over engine rebuild. Lee is helping me over there, but I still need the Haines Garage folks to 'hone in' on the issues. Lee thinks this engine may have been freshly rebuilt, but never given a chance for the rings to seat fully. I'm thinking he is right. (Isn't he always?) Per his suggestion, I removed piston #4, then slipped off a ring and stuck it in the cylinder. This is what I found...  I'm thinking the rebuilder removed too much material when setting the ring gap. What do you think? Also, there is no honed cross hatch on the cylinder walls. We may have a combination of poorly sized ring gap and no break in honing. There may be more issues. That's why we are all here. Help me! Tim |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 18:41:22 GMT -5
The ring gap is HUGE, you do need to accurately measure the bore, another thing you could do is buy a very long set of feeler gages and see what the piston to cyl clearance is (there is feeler gages made for this purpose). It is possible someone actually honed the block oversize (common many years back) and went to big or the rings were .040 oversize on a .060 piston. Whatever happened it needs to be corrected and no damage has been done, time will tell. I will add, I have assembled many engines and I do not believe I have ever had to file a ring gap, if the ringset is correct it should fit. Lee |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 18:42:13 GMT -5
AGREE 100% WITH LEE..LOOKS LIKE A QUICK FIX FOR A REBUILD IN A BACK YARD MECHANIC OVER DOING THE CYLINDER ...FIX IT TEMPORARY AND SELL IT OFF...ALSO WITH THE CARBON ON THE TOP OF YOUR PISTON SAYS IT ALSO .. BEST BET IS PULL IT TAKE IT TO A MACHINE SHOP AND HOPE THEY CAN RE BORE IT CORRECTLY..NEW RINGS ARE NOT GOING TO HELP IT I AM AFRAID..
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Post by athawk11 on Jan 17, 2014 18:57:44 GMT -5
HG, These surroundings should look familiar... |
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 17, 2014 20:55:54 GMT -5
I remember that place very well my friend. That was one of the best times of my life.
Very Cool Video!
Now lets talk of the engine.
Sir Leemeister is 100% correct.
I actually stopped at my machine shop today, and spoke with the head man himself.
He told me for you to check your bore first, then rig gap...
Start there...
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 17, 2014 23:38:32 GMT -5
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 17, 2014 23:56:14 GMT -5
This person knows what is up...no doubt,,,and for a 3A no less link Click on the LINK TAB!! |
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 18, 2014 0:05:43 GMT -5
Also, I saw the post on the 2Ass pages...Thank God for Lee and Joe Friday. Just for the record, I don't care how much of an expert you feel you are...boring an L134 engine to .080 over is just plain stupid. Rut Ro, and Lol...is that a licence to be a bungis? There I said it. And Yes...I do know what I am talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 0:52:11 GMT -5
.090 is where it really starts to open up to some power.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 11:20:28 GMT -5
Hard to keep the 134 cool at .060, I would think impossible at .080, I guess .080 is for trailer queens! MHO, Lee |
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 18, 2014 19:37:16 GMT -5
True Sir Leemeister True...
I know Sir Schimms is just being FUNNY!
How did you all like the link on the CJ3A I posted...I thought he was spot on...
Any Comments?
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Post by Haines Garage on Jan 19, 2014 22:12:49 GMT -5
Glad to see the Broncos are going to the SUPER BOWL! Sir Hawkridge..Did you see the vids I posted. My opinion still stands, MACHINE SHOP...AGAIN JUST MY OPINION. I have seen your work first hand...In Person. You are by far one of the most meticulous restorers I have seen to date. My feeling is that if you dive into that motor, we will have a Future Willys engine guy to talk with . What have you got to lose? I know...Time and MONEY! Two very valuable things...One more so than the other. Maybe we could do an engine rebuild thread here together... I should be ready soon...My Machine work has been done. What Say You My Friend? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 17:36:31 GMT -5
Tim here is a shot of a piston with a little wear on it.  Notice the scuffing on the skirt, yours does not have that. Lee |
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Post by athawk11 on Jan 20, 2014 22:24:16 GMT -5
Lee, Between you and me, I think some of the Carolina folks slipped into Colorado and smoked a bunch of doobies!  The more I read, study, measure, clean, the more I feel this engine has gone through a rebuild or refurb very few miles ago. Your imput has been very helpful. If the piston you are showing has a "little wear", then mine are near new. To my point, here are some photos of other components. Bearings, crank journals. Cam photo didn't come out very well, so I left it out.  I didn't post a photo of all the bearings, but they all look fresh with no scuffing at all. Rod bearings look just as good as the mains.   This photo is a little blurry, but trust me, all journals look as good as the close up above.  Tappets/lifters, springs and exhaust valves look new. The worst spring is on the left. It has some surface rust. Probably because it sits next to the poorly sealed PCV connection. The Intakes look original, as the tops are pitted. The valve seats look newly polished, and I was leaking no air through the intake or exhaust valves during the leak down test.  My work zone. Not as fancy as Haines Garage, but it keeps me dry.  Started cleaning the head. No cracks that I can see. The block has never been decked. Cleaned off the carbon that built up on the top edge of the cylinders with a scotch bright pad.  In conclusion, I am going to cross hatch hone the cylinders as soon as I get my dingle berry hone. I will install my new set of rings. I decided to go with iron rings, as they are suppose to be a little easier on the bores. At .060 over, I don't want to torture them any more than I have to. Hopefully they will be sized, but if I need to set the gap, it will be .00955 per the spec on a .060 over piston. (.003" X 3.185") So, there it is. Will this be successful? Maybe. Maybe not. If it is, I'm a genious. If it isn't, I will have learned a good lesson. Tim |
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