Chasing the spark

[Deleted]

Ok...it's on the WC, but it's the same damn system, right?!

Well, the old girl "ran when parked" (haha), but she ain't moving now!

-no spark at the plugs
-have seen a spark at the points, but not consistently. Sometimes it was nice and blue! I actually changed the points (see old ones in picture)
-removed coil wire from dizzy cap and got a good spark to a ground...once (when using a screwdriver to open points)! Can't get it to do it again.
-Dashboard switch wire to coil...removed it and touched a ground (ignition on!) and couldn't ever get a spark!
-pulled out switch and used multimeter...getting 6 volts to it.

Sounds like possibly the coil is going kaput? However, I'm perplexed that the hot wire TO the coil didn't spark on the ground. Unless my ground sucks...but it was to one of the braided grounding wires.

It's always something with me, right??

Oh...I bet Oily knows...will the coil in the jeep be the same for the WCs?

[Deleted]

Most likely bad or shorted condenser. Bright blue arc at the points is bad, that why the points are burned. Arcing at the points is a tip off. Check primary wiring 6v to the coil for obvious defects, and replace condenser.

Not Oily, as long as the system voltages are the same, the coils will interchange, but my bet is the coil is just fine. Coils very seldom fail, most "coil problems" are condensers/points.

[Deleted]

Come to think of it, the wire (from coil to dizzy) is very frayed and is in poor shape where it connects to the coil. My original thought was the condenser, too, but I bypassed it when I couldn't find a spark to ground from the hot wire going to the coil.

A few years ago, I did have a condenser just up and go bad on the jeep. Jeep ran great...parked it in the garage...two weeks later: no go. Bad condenser.

It's raining now. If I get home early tomorrow, I swap condensers with a new one. I always try to keep rotors, points, condensers and caps in the jeep glove boxes. I might make a new wire to the dizzy, too.

Thanks, Gary.

[Deleted]

Condenser can be finicky (kinda like females), they might be happy for the longest time.......than BAM!....Lookout!!!!
If you want I can try to explain the function of a condenser later on ......

[Deleted]

I tried reading up on them earlier. I'm probably waaaaaay out in left field, but what I think I interpreted was something along the lines of them storing up excess voltage (or some other electrical term!) and using it when the points aren't sparking? Yeah...I'm going to quit writing what my inside voice is saying. This dialogue is giving HG way too much easy ammunition to fire on me.

You don't have to be in any kind of hurry, Gary, but at some point I'd love to have the simpleton's version of it!

[athawk11]

I'm no expert on how the battery, coil, condenser, and points work together to create a spark at the plugs. Hopefully Gary will correct me if I'm way off, but I believe...in the simplest of terms...that the condenser "Amplifies" the DC electrical current to help get the "Spark" hot enough to burn fuel. Thus, a weak spark will often lead us to replace the condenser.

Tim

[Haines Garage]

I second that motion .,.
Somehow I feel Sir Gary will have the answer ...

[Deleted]

I'LL third it!. If your points are burnt like yours appear to be, you either left the ignition on for a long period of time, or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the condenser is bad! .

1) replace points and condenser.

2) verify 6 volts at coil with ignition on.

3) Your humidity can be very hard on spark plug wires, look them over closely, if old, replace them! and with real wire wires, not the HEI carbon ones the kid at the parts store wants to sell you.

Lee

[Deleted]

Ok, here it goes......

. If that dot was an electron, and it condenses into a proton....Just kidding!

Condenser is the archaic term for capacitor. It's a device that stores electricity between thin sheets of insulating material and a foil conductor.

Its function in auto ignition in simplest terms to act similar to hammer arrester in a water pipe. I'll explain...

A coil had to induce aprox. 20,000 volts to jump a spark gap, it accomplishes this feat by using voltage generated by a collapsing magnetic field across many fine windings of copper wire. Same principle a generator uses by spinning its armature inside magnetic field, except in a coil the magnetic field moves and not the armature.


So what happens is when the point are closed, a magnetic field is produced inside the coil by current flowing through the primary side of the coil. When the points open, the flow of primary current stops, and the field collapses instantly and a high voltage current is induced...in theory.

Back to a hammer arrestor....The points are a valve for electricity. They open and close 4000 times a minute in a 4 cyl engine running 2000 rpm. Electricity is just like water, when it starts flowing it does not want to stop. If the condenser wasn't there, the points would open, and the primary current would just jump the point gap and arc. The circuit never really opens, the magnetic field in the coil doesn't completely collapse or collapses erratically and no spark or a weak spark is induced.

So just like if you turn your shower off really fast and you hear the pipes hammer......

A condenser gives a place for some of the current to go to while the magnetic field collapses and soften the blow, so to speak.


Hope this helps!!

[Haines Garage]

Like I said....
Ask Receive !!!
Out if the park explanation !
I'm just glad to be on the team !

[zooke581]

Running point systems on my motorcycles (old ones) is has always (90%) of the time condenser. On occasion the coil. But usually when the motor got hot the condenser crapped out. When cool it was good again till it got hot.

[Deleted]

Ok,,,,,,,,,,, Sir Gary has a new handle............ "The Professor", that was a hell of an explanation .


Lee

[Deleted]

That Gary, watch him. Good stuff. Now Moosey, points 101: Take a test light with the probe and alligator clip. Everything buttoned up and ready. Once you have a good set of points and gapped, turn on the key or switch. The lead into the coil or + should light up the light at the coil. While cranking, test with the probe on the - side of the coil. If the points are working, the light will blink on and off as you crank. Shorting the hot wire to ground that comes from the switch is not a good thing to do. If you have a fuse in line, it will blow it. Now, You said you had a good spark at the coil wire. Make sure your rotor inside the distributor isn't bad. I've had them burn a hole right through the plastic that is impossible to see other than a little grey smoke deposit on the bottom of the rotor. This simply grounds the power from the coil to the distributor shaft and nothing comes out the plug wires. A bad coil never sparks the center wire, or-----starts dropping out spark as the coil warms up. That's why you can leave the house and as things warm up it runs worse and worse until it will idle but won't accelerate. As Ryam M said--------I use "Rouge Methods" to get the job done------- . He is correct. I like things kept simple so my simple and intelligent mind can understand. I hate calculus. Just never could make the connection to the outside world. Old School is my favorite way. Like the SD Ranchers---- they can fix anything with baling wire, wood, and nails. Get er done pard. Oilly

[Deleted]

Moosey, coil are two kinds: internally resisted or externally resisted. When you use 6 volt, you don't burn points like 12 volt. So, if you are running 12 volt, you need that resister. As far as Jeeps or WC, 6 or 12 for each is the same coil. When you get into the 50's and 24 volt systems, we have a new can of worms to talk about, especially the waterproof ones. Carryall is going to be a possible item when the owner gets back from vacation. Her husband, a friend of mine has passed on and she is downsizing. Me, too stupid, I'm still upsizing. Hell of a auction when I die! Ha! Oilly

[The Moose Shocker]

That is totally old school!  Nowadays, its all duct tape!  I wondered what they did "way back when..."  Kind of like before chicken nuggets were invented-what the hell did kids eat in the back seat???!

By the way, I tried checking the rotor per the instructions in the manual.  Shocked the sh!t out of me!!  Pretty funny.  I was wearing my rubber gloves in anticipation, too.  Note to all reading:  Harbour Freight gloves will not repel the shock!  Since I epically failed that test, I swiped the rotor from MY jeep.  A little bit later is when I posted my first post here.  lol.  Somebody might should take my toys away from me.

Sept 17, 2014 6:32:27 GMT -5 @oilleaker1 said:

Old School is my favorite way. Like the SD Ranchers---- they can fix anything with baling wire, wood, and nails. Get er done pard. Oilly

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2014 21:57:43 GMT -5 @lee said:

Ok,,,,,,,,,,, Sir Gary has a new handle............ "The Professor", that was a hell of an explanation .


Lee

Professor?!!!! I'm flattered!!!

But, I'm wayyy under qualified for such a lofty title...

Let's just go with Dumbass country boy with a worn out Willis...more befitting!

[Deleted]

Nope its the "Professor"

Lee

[Deleted]

Professor Rancho Deluxe...

I need some knowledge! Is class in session??!

I've finally gotten the damn spark from the ignition switch to the points and even the spark plugs! However...my question is about the spark plug wires themselves.

I took Lee's advice and purchased a new set...from one of his favorite dudes...Midwest Military. I guess it is a repro of the old military style. I can take my multimeter and see continuity from one end of the wire to the other. On the spark plug end, the doohickey (suppressor?) screws into the wire and then pops onto the spark plug.

Here is a picture:


Curiously, I cannot get a spark to the plug. But, when I put my 50 year old wire back on, I got the spark!

The suppressor cap for the new wire has a screw that screw into the spark plug wire. When I put the suppressor in place, I do not have continuity through one end of the wire to the tip of the suppressor that snaps onto the spark plug. Should I have continuity?

I unscrewed the suppressor and checked the continuity from the screw to the part that snaps onto the spark plug: no continuity. Is this right?

The old ones have continuity from one end to the other.

[Deleted]

Oh, by the way...she just roared to life with those old nasty spark plug wires! hahahahaha!

And as far as I could tell, the issue was with the connection from the radio suppression filter box to the coil. The other two connections from the box (to starter and voltage regulator) read 6+ volts. The terminal to the coil was only getting 5.8. I removed the wire, cleaned the connection, cleaned the screw and put the wire back. Still nothing. I replaced the wire and got a hefty spark when I momentarily grounded it. I never got that with the other wire. I cleaned up the take-off wire's connections and reinstalled. BINGO!

But I did not discover that link until I wrapped myself up like a pretzel and checked everything under the dash.

hahahahaha.

Professor-I do still want to find out about the new spark plug wires and suppressors. Those were only $50 from Midwest.

[Deleted]

Suppressor wires were only on the WW2 rigs, I would call John on that, if your not getting spark through them. If you are not looking for the OE look, NAPA has real copper wires also.

Lee

Sent to you from the parking lot of Rudycons grocery store

[Deleted]

Sorry Bo! This is where I'm just Rancho Deluxe Dumba$$, I have absoulutly no experience with the military style plug wires.. or WW II radio suppression systems for that matter. It'll give me something to learn anyhow!

I always went for Napa copper cored wires.... I'sa po' boy!

But good job on finding the bad connection!!!! Glad she's running!

[Deleted]

I've been researching.......

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2014 21:57:43 GMT -5 @lee said:

Ok,,,,,,,,,,, Sir Gary has a new handle............ "The Professor", that was a hell of an explanation .


Lee

I was searching through old threads looking for coil numbers for Haines. I think they've been posted somewhere here. Anyways, I found this awesome post...this is where the professor became THE professor.

[Deleted]

This was a good one. A defining moment. Fun to read it again. Oilly

[Deleted]

I agree, I made it a sticky, as it has historical value to this forum, and it will be easier to find.